Jiffa: Okinawa's Deadly Hairpin

[MikeK]

Bill,
I have to wonder about the tonfa, sai and bo being used more for training purposes as opposed to being everyday carry like some of these other weapons. You can't conceal the big 3 and so far in my wanderings through the woods I've rarely found adequate bo material laying around on the ground when needed, so unless you were headed for a fight they don't seem practical.

So, what would our modern day Western culture Jiffa be? What item (outside of a Glock and a CHP) could we carry that was accessible in an instant, could be on our person most of the time, act as a force multiplier for what we already know and be 100% legal to carry?

[Victor Smith]

Mike,

IMO, the value of the traditional kobudo weapons study is for the subsidiary values they offer in dveloping strength and manipulation skills to enhance the use of karate application. Such as decades of work with sai low blocks to support a grab and twist down defense application.

No doubt bo, sai, tonfa and kama can't be lugged around in today's world.

As for what is an effective force multiplier to assist in defense, I would suggest anything you can put your hands on.

One of our studies is a short stick form from Bando, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YINL1XMHdm8 . This was a Burmese backup weapon hidden in the sleeve where in battle if the sword was broken or lost you could grab the short stick and continue combat. The form shown was filmed a little late, it begins with the stick extracted from a sleeve.

The key isn't that this is a form of stick fighting (which of course it is), but that we also practice it with a wide variety of objects in our hands. Rocks, soda cans, key rings, books, pens, all work with the same movements. And of course empty hand it represents an effective tradition too.

As Jiffa shows there is no limit as to any form being used for the same effect.

The most logical answer is what do you have around you most of the time, and develop a training program to use it.

For those interested in Jiffa, here’s another kata
Tokushin No Tichu Tokumura Kensho Sensei, 9th Dan Ok
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsbQIcpDPt0

or Kimo Wall using Chizikun Bo (Okinawan weapons adapted from fisherman net handles) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgd-IDbMcMk

There was a time I had a certain fondness for beer cans..... <GRIN>

[MikeK]

Victor,
I agree and think the practical benefits of the sai and bo lie outside their direct self defense value.

You might be interested in this thread which goes off track a bit but still was interesting.
http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.p ... 15&start=0

[jorvik]

Victor I much prefered that last Jiffe kata to the first one...to my eye there were some nasty moves in that ,which were basically one punch kills
I'm all for using stuff like the jiffe.but what I hate is when folks just do an empty hand kata and then stick a brick in one hand and call it a "weapons kata" .....it just shows that they haven't thought too deeply about it, and that is the last thing that you want in a combat situaton

[Bill Glasheen]

I hate is when folks just do an empty hand kata and then stick a brick in one hand and call it a "weapons kata" .....it just shows that they haven't thought too deeply about it, and that is the last thing that you want in a combat situaton

I understand your thinking here, Ray. Maybe the choreographer could have shown a little bit of original thinking.

But really... this doesn't bother me. The point of the form was to show exactly what you campaign so vehemently against, so expect to be disappointed from the start. It's the same theme, BTW, that is emphasized in Filipino martial arts when they make you do the exact same pattern empty handed, then with stick, and then with knife. You don't like it; others feel differently. Vive la difference!

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

or Kimo Wall using Chizikun Bo (Okinawan weapons adapted from fisherman net handles) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgd-IDbMcMk

You could put another person's head on the practitioner here, and I would still recognize Kimo Wall's gait.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill,
I have to wonder about the tonfa, sai and bo being used more for training purposes as opposed to being everyday carry like some of these other weapons. You can't conceal the big 3 and so far in my wanderings through the woods I've rarely found adequate bo material laying around on the ground when needed, so unless you were headed for a fight they don't seem practical.

First...

Through the years of studying martial arts, it is my experience that the more weapons (of ANY kind) that you learn, the easier it is to pick up the next weapon. And the more you show connections between movement with empty-hand vs, ANY weapon, the easier it is to pick up a weapon you've never used before and know how to use it.

But just to argue (because that's what we do here... )

Here is the PR24. Look familiar? Many policemen carry one.



Roy Bedard sells a weapon to LEOs around the world that looks very much like a sai. He flat out gave me one at camp to play with. (Thanks, Roy!). I love it!

That being said...

Years of doing sai has made it easier and easier to use a blade in myriad ways. I particularly like the regular vs. reverse grip mindset you can use with a blade. You really need to spend time doing partner work with either sai or tonfa before you get the feel for how nasty a "block" can be using a blade with a reverse grip. And it's so easy to hide that way.

Also... Nine days out of ten that I'm in my yard, it's because I'm doing yardwork. And when I'm doing yard work, there are all kinds of implements of destruction available in my garage. I've got many, many tools in my garage that look like a standard bo. And that really shouldn't surprise you when you think about it.

And since I've done work with a katana, here's a common thing I often have in my car that makes you not want to mess with me. And yea, I know how to use it.

So, what would our modern day Western culture Jiffa be? What item (outside of a Glock and a CHP) could we carry that was accessible in an instant, could be on our person most of the time, act as a force multiplier for what we already know and be 100% legal to carry?

A pen.



Certain flashlights that I was actually taught to use at night time with a hand gun. I have a half dozen of them that can be found at various points in my home, the glove compartments of my car, etc.





Forget the "obvious" use as in chisikun bo. Think also like shomen hajiki (eye flick technique), At night time, a Scorpion with a xenon bulb will temporarily blind you!

- Bill

[jorvik]

Quote
"I understand your thinking here, Ray. Maybe the choreographer could have shown a little bit of original thinking.

But really... this doesn't bother me. The point of the form was to show exactly what you campaign so vehemently against, so expect to be disappointed from the start. It's the same theme, BTW, that is emphasized in Filipino martial arts when they make you do the exact same pattern empty handed, then with stick, and then with knife. You don't like it; others feel differently. Vive la difference"

No it isn't.empty hand is nothing like weapons, in application or in mind process.....folks keep on talking to me about "Force Continuum" then don't seem to understand the basic concept that "what you do with a weapon, how you do with a weapon, and the expected consequences are somehow the same ..none of these are true....you do a silly kata where you punch somebody three times is a lot different than a kata where you stick a knife in his eye three times ........also consider the targeting for such an attack is quite different, as is the mind process, as is the force required............Kata can be superficial silly folks dances.but if you want them to incorporate life taking techniques then they have to be a bit more, if you want depth in your kata.then you have to dig deep and face a few unsavoury facts.they are explorations in meditation as well as the physical
can you do A killing kata?..where the end product is a sai or a Jiffa stick in someones eye, pumping blood all over the place ..........some folks say that kata take years to learn and understand.my first Sensei told me that " karate was to teach you how to fight like a psychopath without becoming one.he had a very valid point which I'm only now begining to comprehend

[Victor Smith]

Hi Jorvik,

Now I have a somewhat different perspective on the use of tools. My father having been a butcher all his life, killing and processing beef, I'm reminded of Chung Tzu talking about the perfect butcher never needing to sharpen his knife always separing the joint and never hitting the bone.

Anything in your hand is a force multiplier. The short stick form I teach teaches each movement from a tip strike, a stick blade strike and a stick butt strike. The butt strikes will peel down across a face if used. So you're right you don't stick someting in an eye 3 times in reality. After the first one they're not there, or at least I hope not.

I understand you're point that empty hand forms aren't weapons forms, still there is a history for that.

Shimabuku Tatsuo incorporated kata studies from several instructors (bo from Kyan, bo, sai and tonfa from Taira) but he also developed his own sai, the most notable exercise, his Kusanku Sai kata.

There is a strong likelihood that Taira might have suggested such, I understand he was know to have suggested the same to various instructors, take a kata you know and incorporate the weapon.

Perhaps it wasn't the best answer, but it still gives skill working the weapon at the very least.

After all very few of us will actually insert an object into another body.

The point Bill was making about the stick form having empty hand application is quite true. When I use our stick study as an empty hand drill it's techniques are very applicable but of course somewhat different than when being used with the stick. They are not karate, instead something different.

Forms are of course studies. Techniques applied are reality agasint a hostile opponent.

Even impractical kata drills build skills that can be used.

I think it's all a question of scale.

Of all that I practice and teach I have the most problems about the kama and tanto drills I've studied. I find it very difficult to address placing a blade through an opponent and to date won't share such studied with anyone under 20 years of training. Trust being very important.

On the other hand all of my stick studies (which begin around black belt) are also knife studies though I don't share much of that pracitice.

[Bill Glasheen]

No it isn't.empty hand is nothing like weapons, in application or in mind process.....folks keep on talking to me about "Force Continuum" then don't seem to understand the basic concept that "what you do with a weapon, how you do with a weapon, and the expected consequences are somehow the same

Sorry, but I don't see where anyone has implied that the consequences are the same across the Force Continuum. In fact the exact opposite is true, and a reason why that Continuum exists in the first place.

- Bill

[JimHawkins]

No it isn't.empty hand is nothing like weapons, in application or in mind process.....folks keep on talking to me about "Force Continuum" then don't seem to understand the basic concept that "what you do with a weapon, how you do with a weapon, and the expected consequences are somehow the same

Sorry, but I don't see where anyone has implied that the consequences are the same across the Force Continuum. In fact the exact opposite is true, and a reason why that Continuum exists in the first place.

- Bill

I think Ray means that folks are applying the same training template to weapons and empty hand and he sees it as completely different...

Just based on what I know I see very little differences but some between our empty hand moves and with the knives. The sometimes subtle differences like exact hand positions or adding in slashing doesn't change the otherwise identical shapes, positions and actions we use--to me.

[jorvik]

Quote
"I think Ray means that folks are applying the same training template to weapons and empty hand and he sees it as completely different... "

Yeah Jim
That's exactly right.just yesterday I was training on my own, and I always do a pretty similar workout. With my escrima sticks I'll do ten of each of the strikes I know on each hand, then I'll move to doing a 2 minute round of shadowboxing using first one stick, then two sticks.then I'll move onto just standard shadowboxing, and the thing that strikes me is how dissimilar the rounds are..I also do a round of what I call open hand, were rather than using boxing type moves I confine myself to just using open hand strikes, palm heels, shutos etc..this looks pretty much like Uechi, because I find the Uechi stance the best to deliver these type of strikes...............now if your open hand work amounts to lots of shutos and backfists then maybe some of the escrima stuff would work, but if you do boxing style stuff then it won't.or rather it will but very badly.........the fillipinos themselves tend to box ( panantukan).so I reckon I think pretty much the way they do.
With different weapons also, tactics must change.
check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q131zK07Lg8

now you wouldn't use the same technique if you were hitting with a stick
superficially to the untrained eye the moves look pretty similar...also as I've said hitting somebody with a stick is easy, cutting or stabbing them is not..............unless you are a psycho

[Bill Glasheen]

None of your thinking bothers me, Ray.

You should be noting BOTH the similarities and the differences of mechanics and execution when going from weapon to weapon, or empty hand to weapon, or weapon to empty hand.

• To the extent that you've found a common thread, then you have created efficiency in your martial training.
• To the extent that they are different, then you have exposed the unique advantages of a particular venue.
• To the extent that they are different, then you have gone one step further on learning how to be like the tea in the tea cup. This IMO is one of the most important reasons to study as many different weapons as possible, and compare them to empty hand. Being able to adapt the same principles pretty readily from empty hand to weapon or weapon to weapon will teach you how to handle the unique nature of any random self-defense situation. After all, nothing in the street is quite like anything in the classroom - no matter how hard we try to be reality-based in our approach.

Sounds good to me!

BTW, your Spiderco friend is a bit stiff up there. But I guess it just goes to show that any idiot can hurt you with a decent blade. In fact... the idiots in biology class were the ones hurting themselves when doing frog dissection.

- Bill

[jorvik]

In a very,very general way I agree that there is some crossover in weapons.........for example if you know how to fight with a stick, then you would be able to use anything stick like, such as a flashlight.........now getting back to the Jiffe. that is a very specific weapon, so if you are going to carry that in preferance to a nunchaku then you better learn how to use it, ok you can use it a bit like a punch dagger, which because of it's shape will lend itself very well to any boxing style, but if it's your speciality then you need to understand it more fully, also though, I don't really believe that the jiffe was ever used, I think it's a bit of re-invented history.although I would be happy if somebody could disprove that

[f.Channell]

Nunchaku are way cooler than hair pieces.
Only a Katana is cooler.
Of course there's even better.....
http://www.alexanderjason.com/images/CellPhoneGun.gif

F.