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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:52 am 
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we talk of satori or spirtual enlightenment. however if we try to define and understand with a scientific view many will cry foul. to understand spiritual enlightenment thru "peptides" and "lateral geniculate visual cortex" and such seems to take away the mystic. on the other side of the coin if we disscus koans, nirvana, and the intervention of the universe people will say " ah i dont buy into all that mumbo jumbo. it seems we are divided right from the begining ,in fact maybe right from the very moment word "enlightenment" is spoken. its no wonder the japanese roshi never spoke of it and instead only said " do this".
zen is in the "doing"
the Buddha Siddhartha Gautama said "if you want to know the truth, take nothing second hand. not the sciptures, not even the words i speek. but rather go and find the truth for yourself."
in that sense sanchin kata is a wonderfull tool for seeking self exploration and divine knowledge.

hoshin


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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:57 am 
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if we use sanchin kata for self exploration what is it that we what to accomplish? the aim will change the results. i have always said dont take the downtown bus if you want to go uptown.
is there anyone who wants to share their aim and goals?

hoshin


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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 10:22 am 
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Re; the difficulty of words ,if satori is to be verified by anyone ,they have to get past belief or disbelief .

Max.

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 6:47 pm 
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it seems this thread has slowed but i think it is a very worthwhile topic. so with that i will continue with some of my thoughts hoping others will join.

Omori Sogen the founder of Daionzan Chozen-ji zen linage (the group in which i trained) wrote;

"Zen without the accompanying physical experience is nothing but empty discussion. Martial ways without truly realizing the "mind" is nothing but beastly behavior".
at first i took the words at face value but over time it has led me to the idea that you must have both. they support and compliment eachother. there is precieved Zen as there is precieved Martial arts. meaning, is what you are training in and for REAL? Alan Watts was known in the 60's for writing about zen but it was a neo-zen. lots of words containing confusing ideas with wonderfull images, that made the reader go WOW. but true zen is in the DOING. there is the road map and then there is the actual terrain. we should not confuse the two.
so with that i never wanted to involve myself with discriptions and discusions of a zen that could not be "touched". i wanted the REAL. the problem is you can not THINK your way to zen. thats the whole point of koans. to short circuit the thought process so you come to a natural understanding rather then being tricky and trying to be clever. intelectual thinking zen is not. so i trained hard and let things happen naturaly with out forcing the issue as my teachers suggested.
in the same way i found most martial arts to also be a kind of neo- selfdefense. lots of teachniques and ideas with out a real sense of actual combat. i realized if i am going to be real about one type of trianing i should also be real about the other. both lead to an understanding of reality and a grasp on human existance.

The legendary clasical dual between Miyomoto Musashi and Ganryu Kojiro is interesting in this way. Kojiro was by far a better swordsman technique wise and he had much formal training that Musashi did not. Musashi was a country bumkin who wondered aimlessly around the country side. but he was taught zen principals thru Takuan Soho ,a famous monk. Musashi of course won the dual but not because he was better, but because he had forged his spirit and put his life on the line many times before. he did not have "duality of mind". he did not enter a fight wanting not to die , grasping to life while knowing he could be cut down. when the ego is not grasping there is a feeling of having nothing to loose that allowed him to be bigger spiritualy then Kojiro. he was then able to dominate Kojiros mind and the fight.
this is something zen teaches you directly while within martial trianing it is incidental and a byproduct if at all.

hoshin


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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 10:08 am 
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Just got back from Ibiza , so I will pick up were I left of .

Belief .
On the satori experience ,does it exist or is it a fantasy ?
Thats were we can stand in relationship to the experience ,my own back in 77 confirms for me .
My belief was tested and pushed to point were there was a experience ,and as I have said a few times before, all I was practicing was Sanchin .

Faith .
I had faith in Sanchin as a route to enlightenment , looking at the specific route I took It comes over has a direct route ,its not a wind slowly
up the hill side type of momentum , momentum is direct ,no messing .

Mind body and spirit have momentum ,and its this momentum that takes one to a satori.

Belief and faith are commited to the momentum

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 7:53 am 
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Keeping the momentum going ,is the direct approach ,and its one that I have given thought to over the years ,its valid but not for everyone .
I have tried to like others have pointed out [Sanchin ]has a multi faceted device ,and addressing the three different area's this forum advocates ,we have have a very broad and deep set of attributes ,to investigate.

But there can be problems via the use of words as mentioned, they don't always get to the gist of the matter,and the gist of the matter is a breakthrough into a area called by various names ,or satori as we are using here.

The direct approach as unique characteristic's in a world of multi approach, and multi distractions ,the other approach's have say great merits etc, the distractions also ,but to claim the direct way for satori purposes we must dispence for the time being with any form of distraction or approach , this must be made quite clear and it involves the mind body and spirit at a entry level of inquiry .

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:23 am 
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There can be a period of ajustment ,or better still normally there is this ajustment from distraction ,to a type of focus with an accompaning attachment of positiveness ,that can be built upon .Note; I use the word device for Sanchin or a holding device ,for our attention ,so for direct approach purpose its not a toy to amuse one ,but rather a study device .

It is a gathering of attention approach but its more direct in off loading baggage we carry in the three areas mind/body/spirit .
When you fell in love with your wife to be ,or husband you had only eyes for them ,thats who held your attention,on a heart and soul level ,Sanchin to warrent as a holding device must have this above quality.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:08 am 
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We are totally avoiding flavor of the month's,we arn't the honey bee in is roudabout activity's we only make use of the bees direct flight to water .
We are pointing in one direction only ,it shares characteristics with an emergancy mindset ,the house is on fire ,we don't hang around waiting for the flames to engulf us, while looking for a favorite item ,we go direct to the escape route.

Sanchin as a direct approach and an escape on a temporary basis from mini and major distraction's in respect of satori breakthrough ,NOTE I say on a temporary basis only ,to better understand this we need to understand in some measure the [states of condition] we live in ,were as to go direct we enter into one state and temporary dispence with the many states we swing in and out of .

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:45 pm 
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We all have a pretty good idea of the state we live in mostly ,but not always the [states] we can enjoy certain negative states yet not realize the sometimes quick interchange between being positive and negative ,back to my would be wife who I love but all of a sudden I get a overwhelming feeling of negativity towards ,we can see touch ,and chat etc, to the lady and fall out etc, or create doubt.
So the state that's direct I speak of must have doubt attached or better still within its growing compostion, unlike the would be wife we can't talk or chat to satori ,we have to do something totally different to reach it .
I only speak here of the direct way to reach it using Sanchin .
So we need to know what keeps the momentum going ,and its certainly not positive energy alone ,positive is only a part of many differing states we undergo and it can very quickly evaporate ,so in the direct way we can't let positive ness evaporateto a point were we lose the momentum.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:00 am 
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I think I mentioned this fact in respect of satori; no matter how advanced one maybe on sanchin ,satori may not have been a part of that advancement ,we can live in the illusion that satori comes with age and experience of sanchin practice only ,the problem is diverse.

It can come sooner or later ,and there are no absolutes with any method ,even the [direct]I am relating to in respect of Sanchin working as a satori device .

One of the major problems is ; keeping the momentum going ,and because I think having knowledge of momentum on this subject is vital to understanding just were a practioner may be in sanchin practice ,unwittingly the tempo is relaxed ,the drum beat stops,or the kettle goes of boiling point ,it needs experience to spot these in relationship to the state of the individual practioner .

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:40 am 
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Momentum plus the state is vital ,to direct ] so with individual practioners [state] becomes so diverse it breaks down enroute thats why we need to understand momentum /state .
Because we are only working sanchin we quickly fullfill characteristics that aim towards the [direct state] and Sanchin takes on the role of a direct device to satori ,again I wish to point out ,the direct state is only a temporary state amongst many we live within ,yet its not a every day state ,yet we could unwittingly enter it momentary only to be swept away in a myriad of our other states that make up our pattern .
Basically we have prior knowledge of this state, once satori is reached ,and enroute a hunch of being on the right track too .
Again these are characteristics of the direct state ,and I only relate about the direct state via nothing but sanchin ,
A thought that comes to mind when I came across sanchin the uechi sanchin for the first time ,the hunch that swept across me was so overwhelming ,I laughed with sheer joy at finding such a treasure.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:57 am 
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The states we live in will vary as per normal between each individual who attempts [going direct] each individual brings his own problems and attributes ,they too hamper or aid momentum .

Each individual would bring his/her own knock at the door of enquiry .
So direct must have a level of enquiry ,and the knock brought to bear at the door boosts momentum ,this fact clearly see's the flaw in ,just be positive, also these posts are attempting to give content to the at times quote " just do it " which needs a certain knock of the individual as one strong attribute ,again the state will dictate any type of approach .
So the approach state is not a blind state ,it as content and attribute's .

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:19 am 
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I am working out on sanchin ,attention is on Sanchin,and again there are no absolutes just how you are working Sanchin ,you could be at any level ,your understanding could be great or small ,beginner intermediate or advanced ,this makes no differance at all ,other than you have gone direct .
Beginner attention weak but the knock is strong ,balance's up any odds in lacking against the other two types ,in contrast the knock could increase at intermediate level .
Plus the intermediate practioner may up to this point ,have ever directed his/her attention at nothing but sanchin ,so the approach state is actually new to both type,this also takes into account advanced too .

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:36 am 
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So going direct ,involves attention ,this is were my attention is; one characteristic of the direct state is ; there would be great difficulty to sway, thats why I compared it to " I have only eyes for my, to be wife ." its both a common state in one sense and a rare state in another sense ,what makes it rare is its unique approach to satori .

A very wise man [" I have eyes only for my, to be wife.]

A sixteen year old boy [ I have only eyes for my, to be girlfriend ]

The point here is attention ,this is were attention rests ,in the wise and the imature both .

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:24 am 
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A characteristic of the last posts ;is magnetism involved within the structure of the situation ,there is a magnetic pull between the two people ,just as there is a magnetic pull between the practioner and satori .

Also there is a magnetism to Sanchin too ,so we have connections taking shape ,and this is very important for Sanchin to act as direct route to satori ,a practioner could spend considerable time on sanchin ,but there is no magnetic attraction towards satori present at all within the structure of what is being practiced , this does not put the practioner into a direct state of enquiry at all .

This is critical.

Just like its critical that there is this magnetism between me and my to be wife etc, and what is meant hear is ; both a connection in magnetic terms and emotional terms too .
This now gives clear direction in one sense yet mountanous difficulties on the other , in the former case it can be initiated this magnetism /emotional via the visual on one hand ,yet in the satori case we don't have that visual link .

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