very interesting!!!

[Stryke]

Bill my comment was general , I`m glad you agree .

Now lets get back to the discussion .

lets not sidetrack it with the percieved insult nonsense , on both sides and get back to the substance , lets all put our armour on and have a real go at it !!!

were all big boys , we all can take it .

[Stryke]

Ok I`m one of those seperated from the Uechi mainstream guys Bill

So can anyone answer some simple questions ?

When I first researched Uechi , it had a reputation of a full contact style of karate , Is that just from the conditioning ?

I`ve asked several times , but what happened to the Adult tournaments ?

was tournament fighting a big part of Uechi once ? , we hear lots of storys of the old days , why do none of the young guys come on and tell the new storys ?

and why does everyone think training for martial application mean getting the crap knocked out of you every day ? , Is it because they dont know better ?

good article here

http://www.mymuaythai.com/archives/sparring-101/

why do we market Uechi now as something other(or not) than a fighting art , how does that not detriment Uechi as a fighting art ?

How is this stuff not altering the original intent of the art

why are we still jumping swords ?


I do not beleive this is an Uechi only issue , most TMA are in this boat , and I can see it a far shorter time than Carlos or Van .

The Buisness model is appealing more and more to a broader market(often children) , and getting less and less martial , and it is detrimental to the preservation of Uechi as a martial art IMHO

[Stryke]

On the name change and japanification of karate

http://uk.geocities.com/sanzinsoo/meeting.html

[Stryke]

A study of the applications of the katas – which are in effect the DNA of karate – also reveals many aspects of old style karate. The karate of old included the following combative methods in its curriculum; Atemi-Waza (striking techniques), Tegumi (Grappling), Kansetsu-waza (Joint Locks), Jintai Kyusho (Weak points of the human body), Shime-waza (Chokes & Strangles), Nage-waza (Throws & Takedowns) and Ne-Waza (Ground Fighting Techniques).

Old-style karate was for use in self-defence in a civilian environment. For karate to be ‘traditional’ it should also be practiced for self-defence in a civilian environment. However, the vast majority of today’s karate is practised in order to win tournaments in a sporting environment...if your training is predominately focused towards counters against vertical back-fists, hook-kicks etc. which are delivered from ten feet away, then you’re not practising traditional karate. The reason being that you are very unlikely to see those techniques being employed in a civilian self-defence scenario. If you are practising traditional karate then your training will be geared towards defending yourself from a violent and untrained attacker at close range.


***


...when you see bunkai (applications) that begin with the practitioners starting ten feet away from one another, and then attacking with an Oi-Zuki, or any other such ‘martial arts’ technique, you can be positive that the application in question is not traditional.


***


Both old and modern karate includes striking techniques. Hence in this regard the karate of today could be thought of as traditional. However, closer examination shows that the striking techniques of the past and those of today are quite different. High kicking is practised today, whereas in the past all kicks were below the waist. In the past, the emphasis was on power, whereas today the emphasis is often placed upon control. In old-style karate all the strikes were aimed at weak points, however, today these weak points are ignored in favour of scoring areas. The skills associated with close range control & manipulating a predictable response (combative use of the ‘withdrawal reflex’) were considered to be a vital part of old-style striking, but today they are rarely taught. The biggest difference, however, has to be that of range. Old-style karate placed a heavy emphasis on close-range strikes, whereas modern karate places a heavy emphasis on long-range strikes. This is again down to the move away from effective combat skills (real fights are invariably close range affairs).

Grappling skills are a must in real combat and they formed a large part of old-style karate. Practice would have included general grappling skills (Tegumi), Joint Locks (Kansetsu-waza), Chokes & Strangles (Shime-waza), Throws & Takedowns (Nage-waza) and Ground Fighting (Ne-Waza). All of which are now totally missing from modern practice.

[CARLOS SENSEI]

very good reviews Bill, thank you, exchanging our experience enriches us great

[Stryke]

I think it`s a little easy to write all the best folks off as being naturals .

I`ve been called a natural before , but the only thing natural about it was that it naturally took a lot of hard work .

Something I didnt see the less than naturally gifted doing .

but it`s just a pet peeve of mine .

My first instructor didnt think I`d last two weeks , skinny , frail , asthmatic etc ....

[Bill Glasheen]

You're asking lots and lots of questions. It's difficult to know where to start. But I'll throw a few thoughts out there.

• We can't fight in karate tournaments today the way they did in the past. I remember sparring without pads on the hands and feet both in the dojo and in tournaments. The lawyers in Sue-nited States won't let us do that any more. It is what it is.
• When you say "business model", I think you hit the nail on the head. It reminds me of neat things we do in my Research Department, vs. what the marketing people can turn into a product and sell. Customers don't always want your best ideas. They want what they want. My job is to design things that the customers want.
  
  This is one reason I teach non-profit. I get to teach the way I want to teach. In generations past, that's the way many teachers did things.
  
  It isn't all bad. And lets remember that some of the finest martial artists we have around today started in "kiddie" classes the way future baseball stars are starting with "T ball." The more years on this stuff the better. And you can't teach adult material to a child. You have to start them at their level.
• I'm not so sure adults are being taught kids stuff. I understand where you are coming from, but I think it's a bit of an exaggeration. Look... there has to be SOMETHING that everyone agrees will constitute "the bare minimum" that all must do in a test. But if all people are doing in the dojo is "the bare minimum", then they totally don't get it. Their instructors are worthless if that's all they are teaching.
  
  Maybe some are that way. I don't know... I don't hang around such people.
• I for one don't want to be practicing Uechi the same way in my golden years that I did when I was younger. NOBODY in ANY culture does that. It doesn't pass the sniff test. Bodies can only practice in their prime for about 15 to 20 years. After that what are we to do, quit and get fat?
  
  Not me.
• I think training methods are evolving. Some contact is good. Some is excessive. Teachers hitting students is something I strongly object to. Students doing contact work with students IMO is a good thing. But that's me.
• As for sparring in the dojo... It's evolving in MY school, and I think the same is true for others. There's point stuff. There's continuous motion stuff. There's slo-mo. There's many-on-one. There's many-on-many. There's some grappling stuff. There's some experimentation with prearranged hitting with Uechi weapons - what I like to call "tasting the hot sauce." There's scenario training.
  
  It's all important. It can't be defined - in my dojo - as one kind of activity.
  
  I'm not sure what others are doing.

[Stryke]

Thanks Bill

the Legal issue must be annoying , but how do Boxing , Muay thai and MMA gyms get away with it ? . That without a doubt will affect quality in the long term . You will find it hard to retain the alpha types without an outlet , and the average will not seek to rise to that level without an example .

I`ve seen dojos that loose there quality fighters/practitioners , IMHO the rest seem to sink to lower comfort levels .


as for the commercial I prefer a non-profit model myself , but each to there own .

that all must do in a test. But if all people are doing in the dojo is "the bare minimum", then they totally don't get it. Their instructors are worthless if that's all they are teaching.

tend to agree Bill , but I feel the rapid exspansion of the styles and commercialsation has led to this situation were many are doing very basic watered down karate , most show no ability to get beyond the baby steps .

I feel demonstration of free fighting and scenario work should be in there , call it Jyu kobo or whatever you will , I`m sure it was a part of the traditional focus .

Maybe the generic standards partly are to play in removing the martial focus .

I for one don't want to be practicing Uechi the same way in my golden years that I did when I was younger. NOBODY in ANY culture does that. It doesn't pass the sniff test. Bodies can only practice in their prime for about 15 to 20 years. After that what are we to do, quit and get fat?

fitter stronger faster than the day I started .... egads my twenty years are up

[Bill Glasheen]

fitter stronger faster than the day I started .... egads my twenty years are up

You go, Marcus! But then you're a maniac.

I'm a smarter practitioner in my 50s. My mechanics are better. Heck... when I go to the batting cage, I can hit better now (more hits) than I did when I was a kid. And I'm now a switch hitter - something I couldn't do when I was younger. I taught myself how to do that in my latter 40s, just to challenge myself. Years of ambidextrous martial practice helped.

My timing is better.

But I have a knee that lost its lateral meniscus 34 years ago. I just can't do some things without the body giving me crap the next day. And when I was young, I'd heal in no time. These days it takes a little longer. So I have to pace myself on the contact work. And I pick and choose my freestyle partners.

And I allow myself more days rest in-between weight sessions. I don't try to squat obscene amounts (for me) any more. I just train smarter. I do more complex lifts. I try to balance my body better.

You've probably adapted yourself in subtle ways, Marcus. Over time you'll notice more dramatic changes.

As long as you're still showing up, you're doing better than the vast majority of folks who quit for any number of reasons. There's always a good reason...

I agree that TMA is losing some of the alpha males, Marcus. Some are going over to the MMA scene. But whatareyagonna do, eh?

Joey Pomfret joined them. A little Uechi, a little BJJ, and you have a Uechi MMA champion.

And then he retired from competition. Young... and still with a brain. Hmm...

There's nothing stopping any Uechika from branching out into boxing, competitive wrestling (like my son did), and other head-to-head venues. And when you come to think of it, perhaps we should encourage that.

But you know what? MMA isn't self-defense. It's as macho as you want to get short of signing up for the Marines, but it isn't self-defense.

It isn't LEO work.

We need to put all that in perspective. It has it's place in the grand scheme of things.

Yes, I agree TMA has lost some of its mistique, and many alpha males along with it. But that's probably not all bad.

We are who we are.

- Bill

[mhosea]

I just train smarter. I do more complex lifts. I try to balance my body better.

OK, I'll admit it. In the old days I hoped some of my coworkers were watching when I did my bench presses in the company gym. Nowadays, I'm thinking about little muscles more. The other day I started doing some particular exercises with 5 pound dumbells, and that was plenty. I even dropped down to some smaller ones or stopped using any weights at all in some cases. OK, I'll admit it. I sort of hoped they weren't watching anymore, but I felt great after the workout.

[Stryke]

It`s a given Bill if you want to get better as you get older , you got to get smarter .

In fact I consder strengthening a part of my training , not supplemental but integral , another thing that may or may not be considered traditional .

I wasnt really thinking of MMA and boxing etc , You`d be foolish to not train specifically for specific events , though no reason Uechi couldnt do well depending on how it`s trained

Just how we keep the fight focus in the traditional arts , when it`s so much easier to say we dont do that we`re primarily for excercise .

[JimHawkins]

But you know what? MMA isn't self-defense. It's as macho as you want to get short of signing up for the Marines, but it isn't self-defense.

Have to disagree.. Not sure if this has anything to do with this topic.. Maybe it does it terms of content and application..

Although MMA is not street fighting, and it's not scenario training it does offer better and more realistic insights into real fighting than do most other forms of combative training. Most TMAs are *fighting arts* not scenario arts, not deescalation arts, not dance arts... Chinese Boxing is a fighting art--you know for FIGHTING.. And MMA folks do more of that than do most TMA.. If MMA is not "self defense" then what fighting art is?

Let's also keep in mind that there are MMA that train things outside of what can be used and done in the Ring, including multiples, edged weapons and other weapons, along with other modern training..

Yes, I agree TMA has lost some of its mistique, and many alpha males along with it. But that's probably not all bad.

TMA may well have lost some mystique but that's only because it's lost some of what it once was--effectiveness..

You can't walk away with a fraction of what an art was and claim to be better off for it--well you can but it's BS IMO..

If an art is worth learning then ALL of the art is worth learning, or at least as much as is possible. And that goes for content as well as how that content is passed and taught.

An inside fighting system should be focused on, guess what? Inside fighting.. And in the context of Chinese close range combat that means attached connected inside fighting..

[jorvik]

Folks seem to want to cling onto kata...even when their training has little to do with this. If you create new bunkai for kata then surely you must create new kata.
It is sad that many TMA have very few valid techniques when compared to MMA.
If I learn boxing and wrestling and a TMA and then when I fight I only use the boxing and the wrestling it would be stupid to infer that the TMA was effective, relevant or even usefull

[JimHawkins]

Folks seem to want to cling onto kata...even when their training has little to do with this. If you create new bunkai for kata then surely you must create new kata.
It is sad that many TMA have very few valid techniques when compared to MMA.
If I learn boxing and wrestling and a TMA and then when I fight I only use the boxing and the wrestling it would be stupid to infer that the TMA was effective, relevant or even usefull

There is truth in this..

This is the Classical Disconnect as I call it..

When the product doesn't look like the training, when the "training" doesn't have a 1 to 1 relationship to the activity..

I'm not even sure what the bunkai is all about. As far as I know TCMA have nothing like that.. The application should be built into the training with continuity and aliveness--this is critical IMO.. "Bunkai" may well translate as "sun sao" in CMA--it means isolating a technique/application, standing it alone in a void, considered less than ideal, but done sometimes.

But folks can measure the disconnect pretty easily.. Then you hear the excuses for the inconsistencies..

[Laird2]

Definitions of Bunkai on the Web:

"Analysis." The detailed study of martial arts techniques.
www.westlord.com/budodictionary/letter-b.html

"Real-world" applications of movements in a kata.
www.seigokan.com/gojuryu_karate_glossary_.htm

Study of the techniques and applications in the Kata's
www.agkk.com.au/standard/AGKK%20Language%20Glossary.htm

, literally meaning "analysis" or "disassembly", is a term used in Japanese martial arts referring to the application of fighting techniques ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunkai
----------------------------------------------

Not to be confused with any prearranged modern formal drill also called bunkai.

No need for any more kata. Bunkai simply refers to showing the student the application of the movements in kata as they learn them.

When I say we need new bunkai, what I'm trying to say is some of the applications shown are kind of silly. Bunkai is not a training method Jim, it refers to ones understanding of the material. Possibly I'm using the word incorrectly I don't use foreign words very often I prefer to teach in my native tounge.

I would sugest however that there is nothing disconnected about training to understand kata and utilize the techniques of one's system.