What are your views on this? I read it is great for all around good health [antioxidant] as well as a sleep regulator.
What would be a good dosage tablet to take?
Thanks...
Melatonin
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Hi, Van!
The most important thing to remember about melatonin is that it is a hormone produced naturally by our own bodies. Its level waxes and wanes in a cycle directly opposite to the cycle of light that hits our retinas. This is the most obvious reason to suspect that it is an integral part of regulating our circadian rhythms, or ability to sleep at night and be alert during the day.
Several decades ago there were some books which reached the popular press that extolled the virtues of melatonin supplementation. The book elucidated the many benefits of melatonin as an antioxidant, and potential contributor to longevity. Naturally links were made to the prevalence of insomnia in older people and the problems with SAD (seasonal affective disorder). SAD of course is at its worst in the winter in northern climates.
We naturally experience the effects of melatonin after having eaten Thanksgiving dinner. Turkey is high in the amino acid triptophan, which is a precursor to melatonin. The same effect can be achieved by having a glass of warm milk before bedtime.
The good news is that you can supplement with melatonin, and it isn't likely to harm you in any significant way. There are some drawbacks.
Little did I know that I have broken the law in Germany on multiple occasions by bringing melatonin with me to help re-synch my biological clock to a new time zone. Melatonin happens to be illegal in Germany. Oops!
It's also worth mentioning that one shouldn't be driving, or operating heavy equipment after having taken melatonin. The cautions are the same as would be given if taking any sleeping medication. However the effect isn't quite so strong.
Melatonin also is probably contraindicated for people suffering from disabling depression. For many such folks, staying in bed and sleeping isn't a cure; it is a symptom of the underlying neurotransmitter problem.
The recommended dose? I guess that depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If all you want to do is fall asleep, then some melatonin-laced tea (available at the health food store) with about 0.1 to 0.3 mg of the hormone will probably do the trick. It's a nice ritual as well. For the antioxidant effect, as much as 1 to 5 mg is used. However... there are a LOT of different antioxidants available. Overdosing on melatonin to get an antioxidant effect - when so many better (high ORAC unit) antioxidants can be had - is a bad idea. In fact large doses of melatonin (10 to 20 mg) can cause a paradoxical side effect of insomnia.
One final recommendation would be light therapy. We spend far too much time kooped up indoors. A good mile-long walk in the noon sun every day - perhaps with the family dog or a friend - is a more clever approach to "the problem" which would have many other benefits not acquired from a bottle. More light during the daytime can mean more natural melatonin production at night. And a combination of a small dose of melatonin in the evening with light therapy during the day would also be helpful.
Personally I've chosen only to use melatonin when traveling. If I am traveling more than a few time zones, I make certain I do not sleep during the light hours of my destination and I take a dose of melatonin (sometimes mixed with Benadryl) on my first night or two. It's a bit of a sledgehammer approach for me that keeps me from suffering jet lag for too long. I also make sure I enjoy the local coffee for breakfast as well so I get rid of the morning groggies.
Hope that helps.
- Bill
The most important thing to remember about melatonin is that it is a hormone produced naturally by our own bodies. Its level waxes and wanes in a cycle directly opposite to the cycle of light that hits our retinas. This is the most obvious reason to suspect that it is an integral part of regulating our circadian rhythms, or ability to sleep at night and be alert during the day.
Several decades ago there were some books which reached the popular press that extolled the virtues of melatonin supplementation. The book elucidated the many benefits of melatonin as an antioxidant, and potential contributor to longevity. Naturally links were made to the prevalence of insomnia in older people and the problems with SAD (seasonal affective disorder). SAD of course is at its worst in the winter in northern climates.
We naturally experience the effects of melatonin after having eaten Thanksgiving dinner. Turkey is high in the amino acid triptophan, which is a precursor to melatonin. The same effect can be achieved by having a glass of warm milk before bedtime.
The good news is that you can supplement with melatonin, and it isn't likely to harm you in any significant way. There are some drawbacks.
Little did I know that I have broken the law in Germany on multiple occasions by bringing melatonin with me to help re-synch my biological clock to a new time zone. Melatonin happens to be illegal in Germany. Oops!
It's also worth mentioning that one shouldn't be driving, or operating heavy equipment after having taken melatonin. The cautions are the same as would be given if taking any sleeping medication. However the effect isn't quite so strong.
Melatonin also is probably contraindicated for people suffering from disabling depression. For many such folks, staying in bed and sleeping isn't a cure; it is a symptom of the underlying neurotransmitter problem.
The recommended dose? I guess that depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If all you want to do is fall asleep, then some melatonin-laced tea (available at the health food store) with about 0.1 to 0.3 mg of the hormone will probably do the trick. It's a nice ritual as well. For the antioxidant effect, as much as 1 to 5 mg is used. However... there are a LOT of different antioxidants available. Overdosing on melatonin to get an antioxidant effect - when so many better (high ORAC unit) antioxidants can be had - is a bad idea. In fact large doses of melatonin (10 to 20 mg) can cause a paradoxical side effect of insomnia.
One final recommendation would be light therapy. We spend far too much time kooped up indoors. A good mile-long walk in the noon sun every day - perhaps with the family dog or a friend - is a more clever approach to "the problem" which would have many other benefits not acquired from a bottle. More light during the daytime can mean more natural melatonin production at night. And a combination of a small dose of melatonin in the evening with light therapy during the day would also be helpful.
Personally I've chosen only to use melatonin when traveling. If I am traveling more than a few time zones, I make certain I do not sleep during the light hours of my destination and I take a dose of melatonin (sometimes mixed with Benadryl) on my first night or two. It's a bit of a sledgehammer approach for me that keeps me from suffering jet lag for too long. I also make sure I enjoy the local coffee for breakfast as well so I get rid of the morning groggies.
Hope that helps.
- Bill
My thoughts on the drug:
1) most sleeping aides cover up an underlying problem that is the best thing to address. These are commonly: poor sleep habits, depression and anxiety, stress, medication and caffeine side effects, medical problems such as sleep apnea, and so on.
2) many sleep problems aren't. You frequently see people complaining they don't sleep much on pills for that. You only need as much sleep as you need and the amount decreases with time. Without daytime sleepiness, you don't have a problem. People also perform poorly at measuring their sleep latency and think they lie there longer than they do.
3) Sleeping pills can be approved on the basis of showing a statistically significant difference between the active and placebo groups. This means if the active drug group gets to bed 10 minutes earlier, you've got a wonder drug on your hands... but it makes you wonder whether the difference makes anyone FEEL better, work better, or is worth the outlay in cash.
As for the whole antioxidant thing, where's the data? Vitamin supplementation is an extraordinarily costly proposition for our country and there's very little data to support it. A lot of the data is negative, that is, vitamin E and beta carotene failed or were harmful in a bunch of studies. People show insufficient interest in proven therapies like vitamin D, key for bone health, muscle strength, and actually, longevity in trials (latest review in ACP journal club). But instead you've got people taking CoQ because it sounds cool. I recently had physician friends tell me they take Airborne (after all, it was invented by a schoolteacher, and who else ought to be designing pharmaceuticals than teachers with zero qualifications to do so?) and go on vitamin A for colds because "I remember it had something to do with the immune system."
Thus, I'd rather get my vitamins and antioxidants eating a healthy diet that's been shown to improve outcomes. Lots cheaper that way--and more likely to work.
1) most sleeping aides cover up an underlying problem that is the best thing to address. These are commonly: poor sleep habits, depression and anxiety, stress, medication and caffeine side effects, medical problems such as sleep apnea, and so on.
2) many sleep problems aren't. You frequently see people complaining they don't sleep much on pills for that. You only need as much sleep as you need and the amount decreases with time. Without daytime sleepiness, you don't have a problem. People also perform poorly at measuring their sleep latency and think they lie there longer than they do.
3) Sleeping pills can be approved on the basis of showing a statistically significant difference between the active and placebo groups. This means if the active drug group gets to bed 10 minutes earlier, you've got a wonder drug on your hands... but it makes you wonder whether the difference makes anyone FEEL better, work better, or is worth the outlay in cash.
As for the whole antioxidant thing, where's the data? Vitamin supplementation is an extraordinarily costly proposition for our country and there's very little data to support it. A lot of the data is negative, that is, vitamin E and beta carotene failed or were harmful in a bunch of studies. People show insufficient interest in proven therapies like vitamin D, key for bone health, muscle strength, and actually, longevity in trials (latest review in ACP journal club). But instead you've got people taking CoQ because it sounds cool. I recently had physician friends tell me they take Airborne (after all, it was invented by a schoolteacher, and who else ought to be designing pharmaceuticals than teachers with zero qualifications to do so?) and go on vitamin A for colds because "I remember it had something to do with the immune system."
Thus, I'd rather get my vitamins and antioxidants eating a healthy diet that's been shown to improve outcomes. Lots cheaper that way--and more likely to work.
--Ian
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
You're a bit behind in your research on this, Ian.IJ wrote:
As for the whole antioxidant thing, where's the data? Vitamin supplementation is an extraordinarily costly proposition for our country and there's very little data to support it. A lot of the data is negative, that is, vitamin E and beta carotene failed or were harmful in a bunch of studies.
Vitamin E and beta carotene aren't really high ORAC unit antioxidants. The best antioxidants are myriad phytonutrients found in fresh fruits and vegetables. Some examples can be found at the end of this article published by the US Dept of Agriculture.
High-ORAC Foods May Slow Aging
My favorite is acai, which I get in a fresh-fruit smoothie that also comes with blueberries, strawberries, and soy milk. To wit...
- BillIn order to reap the benefits of antioxidants, a diet high in foods showcasing a high ORAC number is suggested. Fruits and vegetables are often assigned a high ORAC number. The USDA suggests a daily intake of 3,000 to 5,000 ORAC units. Unfortunately, the typical person in the United States is only consuming less than 1,000 ORAC units per day. In actuality, the recommended "5-a-day" fruit and vegetable requirement established by the USDA generally delivers an ORAC score of 1,750 units.
Common fruit favorites, such as the apple and banana respectively provide an ORAC score of 218 and 221.The blueberry is considered one of the healthiest berries in the world and offers an ORAC score of 2,400. However, when it comes to fresh Acai, the fruit holds an impressive ORAC score of 5,500. If you are lucky enough to get your hands on freeze-dried Sambazon Acai, you may take advantage of an ORAC value nearing 35,000 per 100 grams.
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thank you Bill and Ian. As usual, you guys are ‘heavy weights’ in these matters…smile. 
I mentioned melatonin after reading an article on life extension magazine, which as you know, pushes its own ‘pills’ _
I really have minor problems with sleeping at night…and I have no sleep apnea.
I have no problems staying awake during the day, but if bored with nothing pressing to do…I welcome a short nap…as I read it is good for you.
But …what happens is that after I work out at the gym or at the dojo with great intensity as it is my way to train…[At he gym three times a week…plus Uechi workouts] with cardio and weights…I have a tendency to ‘nap’ after supper on the plush sofa as I watch a good movie…unless the movie is so stimulating, in which case I remain awake.
The naps vary in length…and they cause me to have to rewind what I am watching…so I can get the entire movie in.
I don’t go to bed until about 0ne AM…something I am used to…and enjoy. [A night owl …if you will] _I enjoy the ‘prowl’ _
My sleep is okay but it does not feel like the ‘military sleep’ I used to love…e.g., hit the sack…sleep soundly until reveille …awake quickly…put my feet down on the barracks floor, and feel like a million bucks with zest and vigor to face my new day.
And so my sleep must be a bit fitful here and there…
Thought that melatonin would gift me with the ‘military sleep’ I loved so much.
Thanks for the advice on dosage as well. In the magazine I see “natural sleep melatonin” _ 60…3 mg time release capsules…$12.99
Question is…suppose I start taking one of those about midnight…then go to bed about one AM…would I get the ‘Infantry military sleep’ ?
Thanks guys…
I mentioned melatonin after reading an article on life extension magazine, which as you know, pushes its own ‘pills’ _
I really have minor problems with sleeping at night…and I have no sleep apnea.
I have no problems staying awake during the day, but if bored with nothing pressing to do…I welcome a short nap…as I read it is good for you.
But …what happens is that after I work out at the gym or at the dojo with great intensity as it is my way to train…[At he gym three times a week…plus Uechi workouts] with cardio and weights…I have a tendency to ‘nap’ after supper on the plush sofa as I watch a good movie…unless the movie is so stimulating, in which case I remain awake.
The naps vary in length…and they cause me to have to rewind what I am watching…so I can get the entire movie in.
I don’t go to bed until about 0ne AM…something I am used to…and enjoy. [A night owl …if you will] _I enjoy the ‘prowl’ _
My sleep is okay but it does not feel like the ‘military sleep’ I used to love…e.g., hit the sack…sleep soundly until reveille …awake quickly…put my feet down on the barracks floor, and feel like a million bucks with zest and vigor to face my new day.
And so my sleep must be a bit fitful here and there…
Thought that melatonin would gift me with the ‘military sleep’ I loved so much.
Thanks for the advice on dosage as well. In the magazine I see “natural sleep melatonin” _ 60…3 mg time release capsules…$12.99
Question is…suppose I start taking one of those about midnight…then go to bed about one AM…would I get the ‘Infantry military sleep’ ?
Thanks guys…
Van
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
The stuff has been around for so long and used so much (and is produced in your own body) that it isn't going to harm you. I say give it a try.Van Canna wrote:
Thanks for the advice on dosage as well. In the magazine I see “natural sleep melatonin” _ 60…3 mg time release capsules…$12.99
Question is…suppose I start taking one of those about midnight…then go to bed about one AM…would I get the ‘Infantry military sleep’ ?
There are both quick release and time-released versions. You can experiment and see what works for you.
Some folks feel a bit groggy in the morning after having taken melatonin. Just a heads up on that... If this is the case, you might try taking it a bit earlier.
For what it's worth... Sleep becomes a more difficult proposition with age.
As always, let your doctor know what you are doing. It wouldn't hurt. He/she can review your meds, your health, and your habits, and can offer some helpful suggestions.
- Bill
obstructive sleep apnea in the military
In my Infantry unit we did have some soldiers with 'OSA' and loud snoring.
And these soldiers were usually overweight, smokers, junk food eaters and plodders.
And these soldiers were usually overweight, smokers, junk food eaters and plodders.
SONNA LA, SMITH PL, SCHWARTZ AR.
Military Medicine 1996;161(6):362-6.
1/175th Infantry Battalion, Baltimore, MD 21201-2288, USA
Abstract:
We report two cases of obstructive sleep apnea (OSA) that presented during infantry field exercises as snoring so loud as to risk betraying the unit's position.
Both patients exceeded the height-weight standards of the Army Weight Control Program (AWCP). Since high body mass is a strong risk factor for OSA, we asked whether the AWCP reduces the risk of OSA.
We found that it should for women in all age groups and for men over 40, but it is less protective for younger men (who constitute a large portion of Army personnel).
In light of this and of previous estimates that up to 1.5% of all Army personnel exceed the AWCP standards, we conclude that there may be a significant number of unrecognized cases of OSA in the Army.
Additionally, tightening of the AWCP standards may be warranted for women under 30 and men under 50, who currently are permitted to significantly exceed ideal body weight.
Van
Not sure what fault you find with my post Bill.... I said there wasn't good trial data, and suggested eating a healthy diet instead of buying a bunch of pills. Nothing in your post suggests you disagree except your opening line. However, part of the reason sleep becomes harder with age is that the elderly need less but aren't told to expect this and worry they've got insomnia when they have little sleep. That's normal unless there are other symptoms.
Obstructive sleep apnea is due to floopy tissues in the upper airway obstructing breathing while asleep. Treatment is weight loss, weight loss, weight loss, and mask ventilation at night, or sometimes even a hole in the neck (tracheotomy) or surgery to remove redundant tissue. Sleeping pills won't help.
A brief review:
http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band145/b145-6.html
Some mixed trial results (random sample of many)
http://ageing.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co ... t/32/2/164
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14376793
http://jcn.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/23/6/649
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11292231
http://www.websciences.org/cftemplate/N ... D=20034648
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1803 ... d_RVDocSum
Here's one positive study with an interesting conclusion.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1787 ... d_RVDocSum
"A significant and clinically relevant shortening of sleep latency to the same extent as most frequently used sleep medications was also found (-24.3 vs.-12.9 minutes; p = 0.028)."
Ok, so... 12 extra minutes of sleep is clinically relevant ... how?? The study looks as some other measures, one of which being overal responder analysis--there was 11% more patients improved on the drug. That means about 10 people have to be treated for one to experience benefit. There was also an improvement in quality of life--at least they were checking some real outcome, but that's tricky to define...
Obstructive sleep apnea is due to floopy tissues in the upper airway obstructing breathing while asleep. Treatment is weight loss, weight loss, weight loss, and mask ventilation at night, or sometimes even a hole in the neck (tracheotomy) or surgery to remove redundant tissue. Sleeping pills won't help.
A brief review:
http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band145/b145-6.html
Some mixed trial results (random sample of many)
http://ageing.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co ... t/32/2/164
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14376793
http://jcn.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/23/6/649
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11292231
http://www.websciences.org/cftemplate/N ... D=20034648
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1803 ... d_RVDocSum
Here's one positive study with an interesting conclusion.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1787 ... d_RVDocSum
"A significant and clinically relevant shortening of sleep latency to the same extent as most frequently used sleep medications was also found (-24.3 vs.-12.9 minutes; p = 0.028)."
Ok, so... 12 extra minutes of sleep is clinically relevant ... how?? The study looks as some other measures, one of which being overal responder analysis--there was 11% more patients improved on the drug. That means about 10 people have to be treated for one to experience benefit. There was also an improvement in quality of life--at least they were checking some real outcome, but that's tricky to define...
--Ian
