the first stuff you learn

[2Green]

Bill:

The idea of drilling from an unprepared stance is a GREAT idea.

I think that very seldom would one be prepared for the first attack to the degree of having the guard up: that's just a leftover myth from too many John Wayne movies.

~N~

[fivedragons]

In many kata the first movement stems from a "ready" stance, which is just a stylized form of "standing there".

Then you have the movements issuing from a chambered position (chambered having different meanings, as uechi sanchin chambered just means the arm has come straight back under the armpit, while to others the term might mean against or just above the hip), which can be interpreted in many valid and useful ways, but one very obvious and glaring connotation being that the movement will naturally come from beside the hip, unless there is prior notice of an attack.

Important to note that even if there is a perceived intent to attack, tactically the thing called a "sucker punch" (which is a non-telegraphed movement originating from a non-threatening stance) necessarily comes from a neutral position.

There are other reasons for the "chambered position".

[fivedragons]

So naihanchi is a good example of simple gross motor movement with intent to damage gone terribly wrong.

Wrong in the sense that one might hear stupid stories about it being designed for fighting sideways on the ridge in a rice patty, to the way people practice it, with no conception of the power lines and targeting inherent in the movements.

If you take the average student and show them the standard way of demonstrating naihanchi, you will most likely do nothing more than mystify them with some unexpressed question in their psyche that goes something like this: "what does this mean, why do people do it, and what is the secret behind all this stuff that I might just learn if I continue doing what I'm doing now for 50 or 60 years?

The damn thing just doesn't make any sense.

[fivedragons]

Naihanchi doesn't have anything to do with techniques, or prescribed movements to deal with specific attacks.

It is simply a dance created by some maniacal s.o.b. to communicate principles of applying force through movement into another person.

And it is a work of art, in that somehow someone somewhere packed so much knowledge about violent movement into such a short and compact series of movements, in such a manner that each movement serves to illustrate in an exaggerated manner, the body mechanics required to perform the next movement.

It's so simple that it can be confusing, because people aren't used to simple, and they don't want to be told about simple.

We don't want to learn about ourselves or what is in front of our faces, we want to learn something secret and complicated that will give us magical powers over everyone else.

We want to become MASTERS OF KARATE!!!!!!

[MikeK]

Bill:

The idea of drilling from an unprepared stance is a GREAT idea.

I think that very seldom would one be prepared for the first attack to the degree of having the guard up: that's just a leftover myth from too many John Wayne movies.

~N~

To me, the idea of drilling from an unprepared stance** is a funny idea since it's where we started when we first walked in the door. Why do we spend so much time having to undo karate training, does it point to a big flaw in the training methodology?

Is it still unprepared if used in a drill? I don't think so.

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike

In more fashionable circles (RBSD et al), it's called scenario training.

Try as I may, I just can't get the bad guy to jump out of the bushes after I've stretched and I'm wearing my karate pajamas. I can't get them to attack me on a clean wooden floor where I walk barefoot like Kwai Chang Caine. To people who basically don't make fighting a habit - and that accounts for AT LEAST 85% of the people in any culture past, present, and future - they will not be squaring off and raising their guard before the first blow is struck. They may not be wearing their most athletic clothes or shoes. They may not have their kids safely locked away at home or inside the mommy van.

Try as I may, I just can't get the bad guy to follow me to the pistol range where I'm armed to the teeth, with Rich Castanet and his incredible collection right there beside me. Nope... the bastards have the audacity to hide behind cars in a parking lot, or enter my home when I'm half naked and the kid left the door open to walk the dog. There is no holster on my Fruit of the Looms shorts.

Scenario training - the modern name - is a fancy name for an old term: karate do. It's not just the waza; it's the mindset.

Why do we spend so much time having to undo karate training, does it point to a big flaw in the training methodology?

Why would you question a picture of heiko dachi, a.k.a. "natural stance"?



For what it's worth, that is a traditional martial arts stance. It is in the beginning of every Uechi Ryu form. Pretty cool, eh?

- Bill

[TSDguy]

I'm no staff expert so this may be obvious to everyone who's used one, but the 'move' from hanging the staff at your side to "ready position" with it parallel to the ground in front of you makes a great attack. I always thought that was very clever of someone.

[MikeK]

Mike

In more fashionable circles (RBSD et al), it's called scenario training.

Try as I may, I just can't get the bad guy to jump out of the bushes after I've stretched and I'm wearing my karate pajamas. I can't get them to attack me on a clean wooden floor where I walk barefoot like Kwai Chang Caine. To people who basically don't make fighting a habit - and that accounts for AT LEAST 85% of the people in any culture past, present, and future - they will not be squaring off and raising their guard before the first blow is struck. They may not be wearing their most athletic clothes or shoes. They may not have their kids safely locked away at home or inside the mommy van.

Try as I may, I just can't get the bad guy to follow me to the pistol range where I'm armed to the teeth, with Rich Castanet and his incredible collection right there beside me. Nope... the bastards have the audacity to hide behind cars in a parking lot, or enter my home when I'm half naked and the kid left the door open to walk the dog. There is no holster on my Fruit of the Looms shorts.

Scenario training - the modern name - is a fancy name for an old term: karate do. It's not just the waza; it's the mindset.

So, do you have your students train this way, or do the scenarios include them wearing a karate gi? Have you been taking them out to the woods, doing some training in a house, the mall, etc to see and experience their environments? I don't do much scenario training, don't really need to.

Why do we spend so much time having to undo karate training, does it point to a big flaw in the training methodology?

Why would you question a picture of heiko dachi, a.k.a. "natural stance"?



For what it's worth, that is a traditional martial arts stance. It is in the beginning of every Uechi Ryu form. Pretty cool, eh?

- Bill

Not much natural about that stance, or any "stance" really. Watch how people stand around while just being themselves, watch their gestures, shifting of weight, hands in pockets, arms crossed, etc, that's their "natural stance". Lot's of tricks to train someone from their "natural stance", tougher if they're thinking "karate" though.

[Stryke]

It`s like natural breathing Mike , it takes years of practice to do it naturally in the correct template

I beleive stances , like much of karate have become more and more extreme , natural is natural for a reason .

I posted a clip of how naturally and easilly a thai boxer taught his fighting stance , not natural , but a lot simpler than most MA schools , and technically just as good (if not IMHO better than most)

[Bill Glasheen]

Not much natural about that stance, or any "stance" really. Watch how people stand around while just being themselves...

Actually I do, Mike. When teaching karate at UVa (14 years), I had a 2nd floor apartment that overlooked a bus stop on Jefferson Park Avenue. I used to note how people would stand waiting for the bus. For the most part, this is pretty much it.

... watch their gestures, shifting of weight, hands in pockets, arms crossed, etc, that's their "natural stance". Lot's of tricks to train someone from their "natural stance", tougher if they're thinking "karate" though.

There's an important lesson here, Mike. And yes, I teach it.

A fellow Uechi instructor (30 years or so ago) once told me about an incident where he got into an argument with someone. Because he was being haphazard about the way he stood, he suddenly realized the argument had reached peak while he had both hands in his pocket and one leg crossed in front of the other. He came to the realization that he was screwed if the fellow was going to throw the first blow. And any attempt at shifting his weight may have been perceived by the other fellow as "the first move." He ruminated about it for days.

Have you seen people walk around town with ear buds in, listening to their iPod? I can tell you about an incident as a young kid where I was listening to my new transistor radio with an earplug and someone ran by and snatched the thing from me. He was gone before I knew what happened. The same happens with a purse, etc.

I have many stories to tell of friends who went traveling and had their wallet and/or passport stolen by professional thieves. The most recent happened to a fairly famous Uechi karateka (and kickass tournament sparring champion) when visiting very rural China. This person ended up starving for days, waiting for charity from someone so they could get home.

Sure, Mike. We can talk about all the stupid ways people stand "naturally." But this isn't karate do. Fuk karate... Nobody who has read DeBecker and comprehended his writings would be idiotic the way most average people are.

Karate do is about a martial existence. It isn't so much about waiting for the next Ninja attack while walking Wall Street so much as it is learning to be in control of oneself and not being a victim.

Yes, I teach that. Yes, this should be taught in any traditional karate class.

For what it's worth, Mike, I show people how they can transition from a more relaxed natural stance to a more athletic one (the official heiko dachi) without signaling to the bad guy around you that you're preparing for the next move. And the more you decide not to walk around like a victim, the more easy it is to do this.

Question for you, Mike. When you sit at a crowded or bustling restaurant or bar, are you choosy about where you sit?

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

I posted a clip of how naturally and easilly a thai boxer taught his fighting stance , not natural , but a lot simpler than most MA schools , and technically just as good (if not IMHO better than most)

That's the stance, Marcus. It's the stance he gets to after jumping up and down a few times to see where his body naturally wants to go. You know... an athletic natural stance. That is heiko dachi.

- Bill

[Stryke]

Thats Sanchin dachi Bill

Natural is walking down the street , training someone to do something naturally is a excercise in folly , training someone to do something more relaxed and in congruency with natural movment , thats another animal .

[Bill Glasheen]

Natural is walking down the street , training someone to do something naturally is a excercise in folly , training someone to do something more relaxed and in congruency with natural movment , thats another animal .

My issue is more with how people do stupid things like walk around with earbuds in, shutting the word out. That may be "natural" to them, but it isn't the kind of natural I want my students to be doing when walking the streets.

Did you read the post Van put up about the fellow buying his daughter a Nintendo DS and being followed by two predators? I am the kind of person who could never have someone follow me like that. I'm not sure how much is nature and how much is nurture. I did do lots of many-on-one randori in aikido, so have developed an aversion to someone following me from behind. It doesn't matter if by foot or in a car. (I'm usually driving fast anyhow, so being followed is often a sign that I'm about to get pulled over. ). That individual (from Louisiana I believe) had the right instincts. It's not being overly paranoid, but certainly not walking around clueless.

I make a game of it. I love to watch people and their behavior. So I would notice being followed purely out of personal interest and hobby. Anyone else could do the same. Practice reading people. Pay attention to the intent of all in a crowd. Pay attention to whether or not you are noticed. (Hot women do... ). I go so far as not to put a bumper sticker on my car so I don't stick out on the road. I want to blend in.

There's no folly in avoiding playing the fool.

- Bill

[Stryke]

Agreed Bill , people watching is a great sport , In fact often when I go somewhere familair I pretend I`ve never been there before , try and experience the trip as if youve never seen the sites before , its amazing how much more perception you can bring to the table if one chooses and trains it .

[Bill Glasheen]

Being set up...




- Bill