Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:45 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:42 pm
Posts: 625
Location: Virginia
A very good point was brought up in the timing/step thread:

Jeff Cook wrote:
Also, who cares if the punch is sub-maximal regarding the delivery of force? Sometimes it is quite sufficient to simply knock the opponent out, without crushing his skull - or strike lightly to throw him off-balance for a follow-up strike and/or a throw.

I think I am seeing a little too much focus on the "maximum power" "one punch one kill" mentality some karate folks spout off about.


So what are your thoughts on the pros/cons of maximum power?

Should we train to always go for maximum power?

I've read that most fights do not last very long (DeBecker's Gift of Fear maybe?), so is it best or even necessary to put all you have into it, or is it best to be selective in your use of force and reserve some strength/energy for what comes next?

Do we train one way, but discuss application may be different? I believe you will fight the way you've trained, because that is what is familiar...

And what ARE the benefits of maximum power versus form, refinement, etc?

What is the main focus of your training..form, function, power, etc?

_________________
Live True, Laugh often
Shana


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:30 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Sarasota, FL
Shana, I believe you are totally correct in what you imply: we DO fight as we train. In fact, that is a battle-focus concept embraced by the US military: "train as you fight."

I become concerned for those folks who invest hours and years of training their "perfect" punch - the one-shot wonder that has pulverized hundreds of boards and bricks, the fist that everyone else in the dojo admires and fears, "ooh's" and "ahhh's" over, etc. Unfortunately I have seen a few master-instructor-level folks in real confrontations just totally blank-out with a "WTF?" deer-in-the-headlights look when their powerful uber-punch has little effect when delivered with gusto to the xyphoid process of a coked-up and drunk bad guy (15 years of some rather exciting security and EP work has resulted in a lot of observations on my part). I know it demoralized me the first time I encountered that.

The one-punch knockout/one-punch kill is a dangerous, unrealistic concept. One must be prepared to "close to engage" and overwhelm the bad guy with multiple techniques. By all means, hit 'em as hard as you can, but also hit 'em as often as you can. If you find out the "often" part is being compromised because you are putting too much into the "as hard as you can" part, you are making a tactical mistake.

Does that mean you cannot drop someone with one technique? Of course not! But you must train and forge your spirit to wade in and keep pounding, without assuming any one technique will finish it.

In the meantime, polish your golden fist on the makiwara, improve your speed and power, but realize it is only one tool in your tool box that needs to be wielded repeatedly, not just once.

Jeff Cook


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:17 am 
Jeff:

I’m not sure where the one punch one kill idea came from in reading that last thread?

What I read were posts about teaching to strike with proper body mechanics and principles to maximize the potential power.

Knowing how to properly strike for power generation also allows one the ability to govern the power used to fit the situation.

Working on power generation really has nothing to do with the fantasy of the “one strike.” (Working on the perfect punch maybe because that doesn’t exist. :wink: )

Training should cover a force continuum because life situations do.

I see you are new to the forums so you would not have read Marcus, Laird, I and others write something very similar many times over the past decade or more to:

“The one-punch knockout/one-punch kill is a dangerous, unrealistic concept. One must be prepared to "close to engage" and overwhelm the bad guy with multiple techniques. By all means, hit 'em as hard as you can, but also hit 'em as often as you can. If you find out the "often" part is being compromised because you are putting too much into the "as hard as you can" part, you are making a tactical mistake.”

I agree with this statement 100 percent.

In fact the only one strike one kill that happens in reality with regularity is the guy gets hit and falls back to hit his head and die but technically we would say the fall was a second strike. :D


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:22 am 
Heard a great saying on training the other day and I can’t remember what DVD it was on (rats):

“The worst you do in here (training) is the best you will do out there.”

I’m not one for the look good perfect move, I prefer gooing for solid strategic movement with the best body mechanics you can drag up at that time. And training for the disadvantaged position.


it was a Scott Sonnon DVD I heard the comment.


Last edited by Rick Wilson on Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:27 am 
one punch one kill thinking is suicide .

but you should hit as hard as can , as much as you can , without compromising your ability to defend yourself (that inculdes being able to deliver multiples)

if it doesnt affect your ability to fight /defend and recover ... whats the flaw in htting as hard as you can ?

force continuim in hitting we are being optimistic , if you have to hit(the real continuim choice) , make it count . (with what is a different discussion)


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:21 am 
Not on topic, but you have a very nice web page, Jeff.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 454
Location: worcester, ma
yes its a no brainer that you should hit as hard as you can. but as hard as you can for the specific time and situation on that strike. from what i have seen, many people fall victim to the "home run" mentality. the guy keeps throwing that same strike over and over looking for the knock out.
i would hope we all try to hit as hard as we can but the situation will detract from that power ( like uneven or slipery ground). sometimes you need to focus on actually hitting the target. if the guy is good he will slip or avoid your strike , so you have to try to hit faster then you usually do and that could detract from you power as well because your bodys timing is now off.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:42 pm
Posts: 625
Location: Virginia
Question here, and this is really because I do not know...how long can most people last in a fight?

I ask because my only prior fighting experience is with sword fighting (historical re-enactment), and we trained for the hard blow as well, but we also trained to fight for precision because hard blows with a sword will wear you out quickly. It's one of the reasons I like the broadsword fighting scene in "Robin and Marion" movie with Sean Connery, because it shows two guys wearing themselves out after a few blows....broadswords are HEAVY!

All the comments on training for maximum power make sense, but my question is does that limit how long you can engage in a fight? This kinda goes back to my original post where I had read that most fight don't last more than a few minutes/seconds.....so, truly curious minds want to know...

Can/does hitting for maximum force shorten the fight? Can it limit your endurance? How should that be taken into account (if it can, at the time) during a real fight? And how should you consider that during training?

_________________
Live True, Laugh often
Shana


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:52 pm
Posts: 1149
Location: Massachusetts
One thing that MMA demonstrates that boxing doesn't as well (because you have to stop punching when they fall down and because the large gloves enable covering) is that once you have enough power to "rock" your opponent, a barrage of subsequent strikes that they cannot defend against in that state can end the fight. The most important issue, I would think, is not about maximum power, but sufficient power to make your strikes work like that. Kyusho targeting may be helpful.

_________________
Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:30 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Sarasota, FL
Rick, thanks for the compliments on my website. Also, thanks for clarifying your position on the "one punch one kill" thing. My apologies for misinterpreting what I thought you were saying.

Shana, it only makes sense that if you put everything you have into each and every strike, you will fatigue quicker. Hopefully the strikes will be on target, though.

If your strikes are not connecting, there is a common piece of advice that I am sure everyone has heard: if the technique you are attempting is not working, immediately transition to another one. In that way you will get more "bang for the buck" and you will save energy (hopefully - it depends on whether you control your adrenal response or if you let it control you).

Jeff Cook


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:35 am 
Absolutely no worries, Jeff. :D

“if the technique you are attempting is not working, immediately transition to another one” -- Excellent advise, never become attached to a failing technique.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:44 am 
Just echoing Ricks comments on your website , thanks for making the downloads availale !!!

great stuff


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:09 am 
I like the clips on your site Jeff.

I'm not much of a one shot one kill dude. It's Japans gift to chun fa :? I'm not much on ye old technique of doom. Been known to ask the one shot one kill crowd how many kills they have. What no kills, what not even a training accident....Oh you have have control...I see....I thought that was like...for sex! The conversations ussually deteriorate after that. Surprising though with all the one shot one kill guys out there I thought the body count would be higher than zero.

Expecting to elimate the threat with one strike is what gets folks hurt. On the range it's double tap to the center of mass. We are faster than a speeding bullets too I supose. No wonder karate gets a bad rap from time to time.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:30 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Sarasota, FL
Stryke wrote:
Just echoing Ricks comments on your website , thanks for making the downloads availale !!!

great stuff


You guys are being too nice, but thanks. My kata videos stink; I hold low rank in karate, but feel strongly compelled to offer the kata to my students with the standard ju-jitsu curriculum anyway (I am a firm believer in the powerful utility of karate). They are there as a memory guide for my students only though, so they do serve their purpose.

Y'all have a good day.

Jeff Cook


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group