Can/should you dominate in a PC manner?

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Bill Glasheen
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Can/should you dominate in a PC manner?

Post by Bill Glasheen »

I found this story to be interesting in many aspects.

The story really bothered me on first reading, and not because of the blowout. Now I realize they're trying to bring "Christian thinking" and "The Golden Rule" in this. But I don't buy it. The concept of The Golden Rule is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If I'm being blown out in a relatively safe venue where rules are being followed, then from my standpoint you are disrespecting me by not bringing your best to the table. Meanwhile if I'm the winning coach, I'm thinking of the "overwhelming force" mantra of Lao Tzu, and I'm trying to find a way to challenge my players constantly to be at their best.

I got to thinking how one could similarly display incredible dominance without a display of unsportsmanlike conduct. If there was a shot clock, then maybe you practice hitting the rim WITHOUT scoring for most of the game, get your rebound, and keep the ball going in your possession. A 10-0 victory done in this fashion would be even more impressive, and would demonstrate a desire not to build up personal stats. Except maybe for rebounding, of course... ;)

Back in the 1970s, Bob Campbell entered the All Okinawa Championships and made it all the way to the finals. As told to me by David Finkelstein and also by Bob Campbell... Bob was dominating a well-known martial artist, but didn't want to dishonor him. So what did he do? He repeatedly swept and dumped the guy, but didn't follow through with an ippon. After about a minute of this, some began to see the method to his madness. As the story was told to me, Takamiyagi Sensei (the referee) started yelling at Bob to finish the execution with a strike. And Bob's answer? "He knows I got him!" The world knows one score to that match; those who were there saw another story altogether. All egos were kept intact. That's one way to dominate - with class.

Or maybe not. Can Bob be criticized for insulting his competitor? I guess you can take whatever view you want to bring to the table. ;)

- Bill
Dallas school apologizes for 100-0 win, will seek to forfeit victory

DALLAS (AP) -- A Texas high school girls basketball team on the winning end of a 100-0 game has a case of blowout remorse.

Now officials from the winning school say they are trying to do the right thing by seeking a forfeit and apologizing for the margin of victory.

In a statement Thursday on The Covenant School's Web site, the head of school said, "It is shameful and an embarrassment that this happened." He went on to say that Covenant has made "a formal request to forfeit the game recognizing that a victory without honor is a great loss."

Last week Covenant, a private Christian school in Dallas, defeated Dallas Academy 100-0. Covenant was up 59-0 at halftime.

A parent who attended the game told The Associated Press that Covenant continued to make 3-pointers -- even in the fourth quarter. She praised the Covenant players but said spectators and an assistant coach were cheering wildly as their team edged closer to 100 points.

"I think the bad judgment was in the full-court press and the 3-point shots," said Renee Peloza, whose daughter plays for Dallas Academy. "At some point, they should have backed off."

Dallas Academy coach Jeremy Civello told The Dallas Morning News that the game turned into a "layup drill," with the opposing team's guards waiting to steal the ball and drive to the basket. Covenant scored 12 points in the fourth quarter and "finally eased up when they got to 100 with about four minutes left," he said.

Dallas Academy has eight girls on its varsity team and about 20 girls in its high school. It is winless over the last four seasons. The academy boasts of its small class sizes and specializes in teaching students struggling with "learning differences," such as short attention spans or dyslexia.

There is no mercy rule in girls basketball that shortens the game or permits the clock to continue running when scores become lopsided. There is, however, "a golden rule" that should have applied in this contest, said Edd Burleson, the director of the Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools. Both schools are members of this association, which oversees private school athletics in Texas.

"On a personal note, I told the coach of the losing team how much I admire their girls for continuing to compete against all odds," Burleson said. "They showed much more character than the coach that allowed that score to get out of hand. It's up to the coach to control the outcome."

Covenant coach Micah Grimes and head of school Kyle Queal did not immediately respond to messages left by The Associated Press on Thursday.

In the statement on the Covenant Web site, Queal said the game "does not reflect a Christ-like and honorable approach to competition. We humbly apologize for our actions and seek the forgiveness of Dallas Academy, TAPPS and our community."

Queal said school officials met with Dallas Academy officials to apologize and praised "each member of the Dallas Academy Varsity Girls Basketball team for their strength, composure and fortitude in a game in which they clearly emerged the winner." Civello said he appreciated the gesture and has accepted the apology "with no ill feelings."

At a shootaround Thursday, several Dallas Academy players said they were frustrated during the game but felt it was a learning opportunity. They also said they are excited about some of the attention they are receiving from the loss, including an invitation from Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban to see an NBA game from his suite.

"Even if you are losing, you might as well keep playing," said Shelby Hyatt, a freshman on the team. "Keep trying, and it's going to be OK."

Peloza said the coach and other parents praised the Dallas Academy girls afterward for limiting Covenant to 12 points in the fourth quarter. She added that neither her daughter nor her teammates seemed to dwell on the loss.

"Somewhere during that game they got caught up in the moment," Peloza said of the Covenant players, fans and coaches. "Our girls just moved on. That's the happy part of the story."
- Sports Illustrated
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Post by Jeff Cook »

Bill, good question. I can't help but bring up this counterpoint though. Our current societal attitude is that everybody has to be a "winner," especially kids. That is a bunch of BUNK, and it is potentially damaging. It leads to an overblown sense of entitlement and damaged self-image.

Kids have to learn that people DO "win and lose." What has to be emphasized is this: it is a GAME, for crying out loud. If everyone is given a pat on the back and are told, "there are no losers" all the time, then what happens in real life when they "lose" on the job, for instance?

There are plenty of very good lessons to be learned in losing, and that losing team seems to have learned those lessons. Good for them!

As for the karate situation, easy to quarterback that one from the chair after the fact, but none of us were there. My view is this: when you enter a competition, everyone is equal. Do not dishonor your opponent by taking it easy on him, making it obvious that you could "kill" him but are publicly toying with him instead. Get in there, get the job done, safeguard your opponent's health as much as possible, and be a gracious winner.

Jeff Cook
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Post by MikeK »

Good lord, have people lost their minds. What the hell is winning with honor crap? This is what comes from handing out trophies to the loosing team in kids sports.
I was dreaming of the past...
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Post by f.Channell »

Hi Bill,
A great show of class and Budo by Sensei Campbell, missing in todays art.
Watch this video of Anton Geesink, a judo legend, winning the gold medal, beating the Japanese for the first time in international competition in 1964.
I think it's at 3.27 you see him wave off celebrators from his team as he calmly and gracefully bows to his opponent as if nothing happened.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtyWMKs7dp0

It sent Japan into a state of mourning, and proved strength and size can over come technique. Although Geesink had plenty of that as well.
He is more remembered for that class than for the win in Judo today.

F.
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Jason Rees
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Post by Jason Rees »

I played several sports in school, and I'll relate what happened at one event.

We were getting our arses handed to us on the field. Was it soccer? Was it baseball? Does it matter? We were down 0-25, and by all indications and amount of time left in the game, no chance in hell of catching up.

Our coach forfeited. Why prolong the torment? Or allow them to build that lead up even further? Which would have been worse?

All I know is, I'm not scarred from losing that game. I only remember it because this came up.

Come to think of it, none of the teams I was on as a kid ever did well. Looking back, ball games were not the thing for me anyway (poor perception of where the ball 'was'). My kids are showing the same tendencies, so they are engaged in other activities: skiing, diving, swimming, gymnastics, judo... more spatially oriented with the body than some external object.

Anyway, as I finish this rambling post after being up since 3pm the previous day (now almost 8am), I'll just ask: did the losing team's coach lose the white towel, so-to-speak? WTH gets on their high horse and blames the winning team for winning?!?! Where's the derision, anger, outrage, etc... against the jerk who let his team suffer the indignity of playing through a 0-100 game? There's winning, there's losing, and there's getting creamed and asking 'please, sir, may I have some more?'

I'd fire the idiot.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Unbelievable!

It appears my sense that this topic was a controversial one was spot on. The disagreements continue, and the job of the winning coach is the casualty.

Question... What about the losing coach? Should (s)he keep his/her job?

- Bill
Coach of 100-point win fired, says he's not sorry

DALLAS (AP) — The coach of a Dallas high school basketball team that beat another team 100-0 was fired Sunday, the same day he sent an e-mail to USA TODAY and other news media outlets saying he will not apologize "for a wide-margin victory when my girls played with honor and integrity."

Kyle Queal, the headmaster for Covenant School, said in The Dallas Morning News online edition that he could not answer if the firing was a direct result of coach Micah Grimes' e-mail disagreeing with administrators who called the blowout "shameful."

Queal did not immediately answer phone messages or e-mail from the Associated Press.

On its website last week, Covenant, a private Christian school, posted a statement regretting the outcome of its Jan. 13 shutout win over Dallas Academy.

"It is shameful and an embarrassment that this happened. This clearly does not reflect a Christlike and honorable approach to competition," said the statement, signed by Queal and board chair Todd Doshier.

Grimes, who has been criticized for letting the game get so far out of hand, made it clear in the e-mail Sunday to the newspaper that he does not agree with his school's assessment.

"In response to the statement posted on The Covenant School website, I do not agree with the apology or the notion that the Covenant School girls basketball team should feel embarrassed or ashamed," Grimes wrote in the e-mail to USA TODAY. "We played the game as it was meant to be played. My values and my beliefs would not allow me to run up the score on any opponent, and it will not allow me to apologize for a wide-margin victory when my girls played with honor and integrity."

***
- USA Today
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Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

Bill Glasheen wrote: Question... What about the losing coach? Should (s)he keep his/her job?
Why would he be fired, for allowing his team to continue to play? They are an 8-person team who haven't won a game in 4 seasons, why should they have thrown in the towel on this one? They are also girls with "learning differences" who would not likely get the chance to play at other schools. Besides, the team has come out of it in a spotlight and with some celebrity status:
At a shootaround Thursday, several Dallas Academy players said they were frustrated during the game but felt it was a learning opportunity. They also said they are excited about some of the attention they are receiving from the loss, including an invitation from Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban to see an NBA game from his suite.
I think the Dallas Academy coach doesn't have to worry about fallout from this episode.

Regarding the Covenant coach losing his job, it is important to note that he was fired right after publically disagreeing with his boss. The head of the school publically apologizes for the margin of victory and offers to forfeit the win, then the coach goes around his bosses' back and e-mails a newspaper saying he is not apologetic. Warning: Such actions by an employee are not conducive to job longevity. We also do not know if anything might have been going on behind the scenes between these two even before this game. Like the article Bill posted says, it is not known exactly why the coach was fired.

I posit that the the Covenant coach believes he will be a sought after commodity for his winning attitude, and was looking to get fired. There are certainly enough schools out there with pressure for winning seasons that it would not surprise me if he comes out of this with a better coaching position, one with more support behind him.
Glenn
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Post by Jason Rees »

This is rediculous. A team loses by 100 points to nothing, and gains celebrity status? Where are our heroes? Why are we celebrating our victims more than our paragons?!

WTH kind of society is this?!

I'm floored that the winning team's coach was fired.
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Post by Jeff Cook »

Even Geesink Sensei understood that you honor your defeated opponent by not taking it easy on him. He did the right thing by squashing the after-win celebration, but he still took it to his opponent with no leniency.

I agree; the way the tree-hugging press and handout-entitled liberals view this whole basketball debacle is SICKENING. There are winners and there are losers. It is HEALTHY to have that distinction. And again, IT IS JUST A FREAKIN' GAME!!!

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Post by Glenn »

There are winners and there are losers, but there should also be good sportsmanship. Unfortunately the winning coach did not seem to learn that.
Glenn
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Glenn wrote:
There are winners and there are losers, but there should also be good sportsmanship. Unfortunately the winning coach did not seem to learn that.
Can you be more specific?

Bill
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Post by cxt »

Back in the day I was at a tournament where they didn't have enough people to really break out the finals.....so they ended up matching a 28 year old with a 13 year old.

The older guy was screwed no matter what he did---if he won he did so by "beating" a kid litterally half his size and age---and if he lost....well...you can imagine the ribbing he was going to get.

So he went out and instead of crushing him he simply fought with VERY light contact, didn't do half the stuff he knew and made the kid work for it.

He ended up "out-pointed" and while the kid was jumping around screaming "I won, I won, I beat him" the kids father was coming over to thank the guy for not beating the heck out his kid.

To this day I don't know if he did the right thing.

Seems to me that the kid really didn't understand that he was essentially allowed to win.......that he didn't really beat him at all....I'm hoping that his father and his teacher made it clear but I really don't know.

Seems to me that is you take away someones "loss" then your also stealing their chance to get better and improve.

If you never really learn where you are weak and what you need to work on you never have the chance to fix it.

It could also kinda patronizing...as if they were not worthy of your effort.

I also recall a similar event in college where a person competed in every possible match long after he already qualified for Nationals........when he was asked to take it easy stop going to tournaments, to "let someone else have a shot" .......he answered...my paraphrase:

"If they deserve to make it nationals then they have to earn it--just like I did. Its not fair that I had to fight and bust my ass to make it and they got there just because all the really good people already quailfied and stopped coming to tournaments.
Besides, I need all the practice I can get."

I think the guy was a bit of hard case....but essentially I feel he was correct.

I'm not sure that "giving" wins to people is really in their best interests.

There is certainly winning with style-----and winning without style.
But I'm not sure that anybody "wins" with the coddeling that goes one these days.
Forget #6, you are now serving nonsense.

HH
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Post by Glenn »

Bill Glasheen wrote:
Glenn wrote:
There are winners and there are losers, but there should also be good sportsmanship. Unfortunately the winning coach did not seem to learn that.
Can you be more specific?

Bill
Sportsmanship: to behave fairly and generously in sports (Oxford Dictionary sitting on my shelf). Humiliating an opponent with a 100-pt victory does not, in my opinion, reflect fair or generous behavior. The fact that the 100-0 victory has gathered so much negative attention reflects that it is outside the norm of what is considered sportsmanship.

That coach also needs to work on his definition of to "run up the score"
We played the game as it was meant to be played. My values and my beliefs would not allow me to run up the score on any opponent, and it will not allow me to apologize for a wide-margin victory when my girls played with honor and integrity
100-0 is only a "wide-margin victory" but not running up the score? So he uses interpretation of definitions to leave his values and beliefs intact. I seem to recall Clinton trying a similar strategy.
Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

Jason Rees wrote: This is rediculous. A team loses by 100 points to nothing, and gains celebrity status? Where are our heroes? Why are we celebrating our victims more than our paragons?!
Glenn wrote: There are winners and there are losers, but there should also be good sportsmanship.
Winning and losing sometimes involves more than just the game, leading to the winners becoming losers and the losers becoming winners
Dallas Academy girls, portrayed as lovable losers on the court but winners in life for their attitude after the loss, have been showered with praise nationally
A difference in sportsmanship leading them to a different outcome from the coach of the winning team.
Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

On a different note, it was announced yesterday that my corporate division is cutting almost a third of its positions, 1000 out of 3400, by the end of 2010, with the first wave of lay-offs by the end of next month. I will probably be a less frequent participant on this forum as other things are taking priority at the moment, therefore I may be slower in replying.
Glenn
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