Bishop Williamson denies the Holocaust

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jorvik

Post by jorvik »

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"Five years in prison? That is irrelevant to this situation. Williamson is not a citizen of any country where such free speech rights are so severe."

You are quite wrong Bill, I've said for years about bliar and the new labour Stazi in my country, there are laws which can get somebody imprisoned for this "Crime" :oops:

The good Bishop was asked to go to Auswich to defend his stance, why couldn't he be heard in the US or somewhere else where he wouldn't face 5 years imprisonment, and in case you think I'm exagerating

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4733820.stm

and look at his occupation "Historian" :roll:
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

I'm not a fan of government squelching free speech, Ray. In this we agree 100%. If government won't allow citizens to speak out, then we will have lost the very war we fought against The Third Reich.

- Bill
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Bill.that's really my argument in a nutshell..........we should be allowed the freedom of speech :wink:
cxt
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Post by cxt »

jorvick

Freedom of speech is one thing....being allowed to say stupid things without being called on it or forced to support what you say.....that is whole other kettle of fish.

As Bill mentioned the Bishop does not have full freedom of speech in his JOB.....he can say whatever he likes as a private citizen......but he has certain obligations to his boss.......little things like vows of obedience and all. ;)

If he does not like it.......he can quit.

My question is a bit more complex.........is this guy really open to looking at the evidence and is he willing to be shown the error of his thinking.....and is he going to alter his beliefs upon being presented with said evidence?

As sincere person would have to say yes.

But few people are on such a sincere search for knowlege....what most are doing is advocating a pre-selected postion and are simply ignoring all evidence to the negative......or employing a host of rhetorical devices to do the same.

It why I like formal debate.....people are forced to confront their sloppy thinking and poor scholorship......no BMW and trickery........you either put it up or shut the hell up.

Besides......."free speech" cuts both ways....he is more or less free to speak his mind...but I'm equally free to call him a "weak minded drooling near-idiot that has clearly failed to do even the most basic research on the topic."

He don't like it?

Tough.

Life is rough...he better get a helmut.......I've got as much right to free speech as he does. ;)
Forget #6, you are now serving nonsense.

HH
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

CXT
You could use exactly the same argument for the people who say that there was a holocaust, only diffrerence is they can bolster their argument with force i.e. 5 years imprisonment.
A lot of people say stupid things.you only have to look at forums :lol: ....so maybe the good Bishop is talking rubbish..but it would be nice if he could threaten his detractors with 5 years prison time :P ......and what if he is correct? would the folks who've told us that there has been a holocaust accept that there wasn't one ?.free speech does cut both ways but we don't have free speech do we :evil: .......and in some countries this is not even open to debate.....a lot of Muslims don't believ that there was a holocaust.just good publicity for the Jewish cause
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

jorvik wrote:
and what if he is correct? would the folks who've told us that there has been a holocaust accept that there wasn't one ?
I will re-quote my friend.
There is not a truth existing which I fear... or would wish unknown to the whole world.
- Thomas Jefferson

Bring on the primary sources!

- Bill
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Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

"Freedom of speech" is often misunderstood. Under free speech, you have the right to say what you want to say or feel you need to say in the appropriate forum and as long as it does not violate any laws. You do not have the right to have your say where-ever you want whenever you want. As originally conceived it was meant to protect people giving actual public speeches. It is not meant to protect people making threats or verbally harrassing someone, giving a speech against a government policy by blocking traffic on an urban interstate during rush-hour, or contradicting your employer while you are on the job and/or using their equipment, etc. There are many more examples that could be used, the bottom line is that "freedom speech" does not allow anyone full reign to open his mouth at will.

What is being overlooked here is why these laws are in place. Revisionist history and objecting to these laws are easier 70 years after the event when most of the people who experienced it are dead. The laws that these speakers are running into today were put in place by people who experienced those years and events, and who took the steps they did to try to prevent a reoccurrence in the future, and to make sure future generations always remember what happened. We should use caution before trying to dismantle their efforts.
Glenn
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Quote
"What is being overlooked here is why these laws are in place. Revisionist history and objecting to such laws are easier 70 years after the event when most of the people who experienced it are dead. The laws that these speakers are running into today were put in place by people who experienced those years and events, and who took the steps they did to try to prevent a reoccurrence in the future, and to make sure future generations always remember what happened. We should use caution before trying to dismantle their efforts."


I don't accept that premise at all. We can talk freely about all manner of holocausts right back to Roman times , but for some strange reason we can't talk about this one, why?...........also the guy who was imprisoned was a historian ..doesn't that set alarm bells ringing :?

Glen are you in the Taliban :?
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Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

jorvik wrote: and look at his occupation "Historian"
also the guy who was imprisoned was a historian
Actually he isn't. Irving briefly tried college twice, first majoring in physics and then in political economics, but never graduated. What he has done has been to make a career of making up history. In the 1960s he published a popular book about the bombing of Dresden which inflated the death toll, basing his estimates on information told to him by "Dresden's Deputy Chief Medical Officer along with some supporting documentation. According to Irving the death toll was 100,000-250,000 (although he later lowered it to 50,000-100,000). Irving was completely discredited when it was revealed in a 2000 trial that
Irving based his estimates of the dead of Dresden on the word of one individual who provided no supporting documentation, used forged documents, and described one witness who was a urologist as Dresden's Deputy Chief Medical Officer. The doctor has since complained about being misidentified by Irving, and further, was only reporting rumours about the death toll. Today, casualties at Dresden are estimated as most likely 25,000-35,000 dead, and probably towards the lower end of that range.
Regarding Irving's book Hitler's War, mentioned in the news article about Irving's sentencing in Austria, in it
Irving manufactured battles; for instance, crediting Field Marshal Ferdinand Schörner with a victory in April 1945 against the Red Army for the control of Ostrava, a battle which did not, in fact, take place.
Not much of a historian. But even if he were a historian, historians are not above the law.
jorvik wrote: We can talk freely about all manner of holocausts right back to Roman times , but for some strange reason we can't talk about this one, why?
You are side-stepping my point. It's a matter of being sensitive to those still around who were affected by a horrific event and time...and I am referring to the whole event, war, holocaust, etc, that engulfed a continent. If you want to judge the Austrians and others in Europe who created these laws as a result of that time, you better be prepared to investigate and try to understand what they went through at the hands of the Nazis first, as that directly relates to why they created these laws.
Glenn
cxt
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Post by cxt »

jorvik

But see that is really 2 different issues.

1-He should be allowed to speak his mind.

To which I say....sure....no reason he should do 5 years in prison for having an opinion.......however that does not address his employment issues....with the Church having made its postion know, he can either quit, shut up or get fired.......up to him....and its his choice.

2-The second issue however is a bit more complex.....if he is indeed speaking "rubbish" then he should be made to face up to it being "rubbish" and shutting the hell up.

People running around spouting "rubbish" is often dangerous and counter to the public good..........such as it is.

And if what he doing really isn't fact based....then IMO its less "free speech" and more "propaganda" or "disinformation"....not sure that one has an absoulte right to spread disinformation. ;)

Frankly I have vastly more concerns about Brition booming "libal tourism" industry as a danger to free speech overall.

2nd I worry about the UN's pending "insulting religion" measures that I fear will pass......one sided if ever there was such a thing.
Forget #6, you are now serving nonsense.

HH
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Quote
"You are side-stepping my point. It's a matter of being sensitive to those still around who were affected by a horrific event and time...and I am referring to the whole event, war, holocaust, etc, that engulfed a continent. If you want to judge the Austrians and others in Europe who created these laws as a result of that time, you better be prepared to investigate and try to understand what they went through at the hands of the Nazis first, as that directly relates to why they created these laws."

I'm not sidestepping your point, I would like to see a full and honest debate about these issues. Are you saying that only the jews are affected by holocausts?...and that folks in Rwanda etc are'nt because that's what it sounds like

You have obviously not read the link here are some of the quotes from it
"Immediately after World War II, Allied authorities declared that "Jews had been gassed" in all German concentration camps. It later discovered that the many bodies photographed in the camps died during the waning days of the war - from typhus, cold and starvation. Simon Wiesenthal, of the "Holocaust Center" in Los Angeles, stated in Books and Bookmen, April 1975, page 5, "No gassing took place in any camp on German soil." The Jew L.P. Beria headed the Soviet NKVD secret police from 1938 to 1953. In 1945, he announced that they had discovered a "holocaust" of six million Jews. This conveniently occurred only in camps in Poland! Beria would not allow any outside investigators to examine these sites. The Jewish-owned New York Times reported in 1945 that Soviet Russia supplied the figure of four million Jews having been put to death, "in the gas chambers of Auschwitz." However, in July of 1990, the Polish government reduced this figure to 1.1 million and it was accepted by Jewish groups. Despite this evidence, the "official figure" of six million dead was not lowered to three million! "
(It should also be noted that Elizabeth Dole, president of the American Red Cross, and wife of former Sen. Bob Dole, revealed that the official death records from Auschwitz had been uncovered in the Soviet Archives. It listed 70,000 deaths from all causes.)

The Germans are noted for being meticulous record keepers. There was no attempt made to destroy wartime records, 1,100 tons of which were seized in the U.S. Zone of occupation alone. British Historian, Colin Cross, writes in his biography of Hitler, on page 313: "There does not exist then, anything like a written order signed by Hitler for the extermination of the Jews in Europe."



CXT
Regarding your first point the Bishop is a Christian first and must be bound by that.
one of the ten commandments is "though shalt not bear false witness."........if the holocaust figures are false, as a Christian he must say so .that is God's law 8)

Quote
2-The second issue however is a bit more complex.....if he is indeed speaking "rubbish" then he should be made to face up to it being "rubbish" and shutting the hell up.
like this guy do you mean
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_A77N5W ... re=related

or this POS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQgEho6-004

they certainly should get at the very least 5 years for lying.......but the Bishop isn't lying he is telling the truth based on the facts as he sees them, if blair and bush can get away with telling deliberate untruths about stuff that got hundreds of thousands killed....surely the Bishop has aright to question information that he does not know first hand.after all we do know that politicians lie :P
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Post by Glenn »

jorvik wrote: I'm not sidestepping your point, I would like to see a full and honest debate about these issues. Are you saying that only the jews are affected by holocausts?...and that folks in Rwanda etc are'nt because that's what it sounds like
Where are you coming up with these tangents? What I am saying is simple, and you aren't even close.
Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

jorvik wrote: You have obviously not read the link here are some of the quotes from it
And which link would this be, none of that info was in the link on the Irving conviction, which is what I have been talking about. What is in the Irving link is his admission on how he has changed his views in recent years
During the one-day trial, he was questioned by the prosecutor and chief judge, and answered questions in fluent German.

He admitted that in 1989 he had denied that Nazi Germany had killed millions of Jews. He said this is what he believed, until he later saw the personal files of Adolf Eichmann, the chief organiser of the Holocaust.

"I said that then based on my knowledge at the time, but by 1991 when I came across the Eichmann papers, I wasn't saying that anymore and I wouldn't say that now," Irving told the court.

"The Nazis did murder millions of Jews."

In the past, he had claimed that Adolf Hitler knew little, if anything, about the Holocaust, and that the gas chambers were a hoax.

The judge in his 2000 libel trial declared him "an active Holocaust denier... anti-Semitic and racist".

On Monday, before the trial began, he told reporters: "I'm not a Holocaust denier. Obviously, I've changed my views.

"History is a constantly growing tree - the more you know, the more documents become available, the more you learn, and I have learned a lot since 1989."

Asked how many Jews were killed by Nazis, he replied: "I don't know the figures. I'm not an expert on the Holocaust."
So Irving was swayed by data that proved him wrong, and as a result he is no longer claiming to be any authority on the Holocaust. I applaud his admission.

Regarding the Austrian law that resulted in his arrest/conviction/sentencing he says
He said it was "ridiculous" that he was being tried for expressing an opinion.

"Of course it's a question of freedom of speech... I think within 12 months this law will have vanished from the Austrian statute book," he said.
I think he is being optimistic on the timeline, but I would agree with him that these laws that followed WWII will eventually be modified or disappear as the war becomes more distant in the past.
Glenn
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

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"So Irving was swayed by data that proved him wrong, and as a result he is no longer claiming to be any authority on the Holocaust. I applaud his admission. "
That's Bollocks.he was swayed by the prospect of 5 years imprisonment


Quote
And which link would this be, none of that info was in the link on the Irving conviction, which is what I have been talking about. What is in the Irving link is his admission on how he has changed his views in recent years


I only cited Irving as an example of the 5 years imprisonment that one can get for questioning the Holocaust, here is the link

http://www.stormfront.org/truth_at_last/holocaust.htm

and here is another one by a Jewish guy
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=3161

To be honest I would never have questioned the holocaust until I started rooting around after what the good Bishop said..I started off believing all the stuff I had been told before.but now it comes back to that old quote " Methinks he doth protest too much".....and I am starting to have serious doubts and let's not forget this
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"The "Holocaust" has given Israel a tremendous psychological advantage over the Gentile world, particularly America and Germany. By exploiting the guilt complex instilled in non-Jews, they have obtained:

Over $65 billion in aid from Germany.
Over $55 billion in aid from America. Israel, a prosperous country, receives $3.2 billion, (or $8 million a day) in foreign aid - more than any other country.
The 45,000 Jewish immigrants from Russia have the highest annual quota after Mexico. They enter as "refugees" without having to prove persecution! As "refugees" they are automatically entitled to full welfare benefits not subject to welfare reform cuts.
Nonstop holocaust brainwashing in schools, TV, movies and books has placed Israel and organized Jewry above criticism! "
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Post by Glenn »

Those links are blocked at work. I can guess the bias of a website named "stormfront" though. With the second link, how do you know it is by someone who is Jewish, because it says so on the site? That's like Irving being labeled a historian. I recommend not taking too much at face value on the web.

Regardless, I have no way to confirm or disprove the number (of all ethnicities) killed in the Holocaust, and really am not interested in extended debates about estimates. Knowing the exact number, even if less than common estimates, in no way diminishes the atrocities committed by the Germans. The German and other evidence for atrocities, occuring both in and out of concentration camps, exists. The "Final Solution" was well documented by the Germans themselves. Their stated goal was ethnic cleansing.

The debate over gassing is irrelevant...whether a large number of people died as a result of gassing or from disease, starvation, etc in concentration camps, they still died at the direct hands of their captors. The condition of Allied prisoners of the Germans also gives us a glimpse of what the Germans were capable of. No gassing may have occurred in concentration camps on German soil, but that was because the Germans generally shipped "undesirables" to concentration camps outside of Germany, wanting them off German soil. That gassing did occur in concentration camps in Poland and elsewhere is well documented, including by the Germans themselves.

Arguing that other atrocities have been commited by other groups/countries is also irrelevant. Two wrongs don't make a right, and what others have done does not diminish what the Germans did.

All of these attempted arguments are simply distractions, to divert attention from reality.

I am half German, and have always had an interest in German history and culture as a result, plus the history of the WWII period has been a hobby of mine. I have read numerous first-hand accounts of that time from all sides. Rather than relying on revisionist historians, I recommend going to first-hand sources. There are numerous autobiographies by Germans who participated in World War II, both soldiers and civilians. Give them a read if you want to cut through some of the revisionist bull. Try for example The Black March: The Personal Story of an SS Man by Peter Neumann, a member of Hitler's youth who joined the SS and fought on the Eastern Front throughout the war. Neumann presents the war and the Holocaust from the German soldier's point of view, and does not try to diminish or excuse either. He is very unsympathetic about what he sees happening to Jews, even after his girlfriend, whom he finds out is Jewish, is sent off to a ghetto. He complains about the German people when, toward the end of the war, they begin blaming the German military for Russian atrocities, which they view as being a backlash caused by German atrocities. It's been several years since I read it so I forget other similar details, but those have stuck in my mind. Basically Neumann inadvertantly refutes the argument that the German people were oblivious to the atrocities occuring around them.

The numbers are secondary to the overall horrific event, the bottom line is that everyone was affected to some extent.
Glenn
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