http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89_cUe-S ... re=related
Is this the progenitor kata for Seisan?
Mike DeDonato
Los Angeles
www.uechi-la.org
Seisan progenitor
Moderator: Available
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Hi, Mike!
You'll see that Patrick McCarthy posted the video. However he didn't stick around to comment. If you look at the comments below, you'll see that I posted a few times. (I am hoosnation).
Kingai Ryu is an antecedent of Goju Ryu. It's more Goju than Uechi, but both draw from the same body of knowledge.
That's a beautiful kata, isn't it?
Bill
You'll see that Patrick McCarthy posted the video. However he didn't stick around to comment. If you look at the comments below, you'll see that I posted a few times. (I am hoosnation).
Kingai Ryu is an antecedent of Goju Ryu. It's more Goju than Uechi, but both draw from the same body of knowledge.
That's a beautiful kata, isn't it?
Bill
Hi Bill,
The performance is bautiful and inspiring. I did notice that McCarthy Sensei did not respond to you and did not put a name to this form
It appears that Shinpo learned directly from Gokenki who we all know was a friend (if not a mentor) to Uechi Kanbun. I am speculating that Uech Kanbun was taught a modified version of this form and called it Seisan.
Mike D.
Los Angeles, CA
mjdcgb@ca.rr.com
www.uechi-la.org
The performance is bautiful and inspiring. I did notice that McCarthy Sensei did not respond to you and did not put a name to this form
It appears that Shinpo learned directly from Gokenki who we all know was a friend (if not a mentor) to Uechi Kanbun. I am speculating that Uech Kanbun was taught a modified version of this form and called it Seisan.
Mike D.
Los Angeles, CA
mjdcgb@ca.rr.com
www.uechi-la.org
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Hey, Mike! Say hi to Steve and the gang.
Actually it was someone else asking questions of Patrick. I think he just did a post-and-run. I ran cover for him since it didn't appear he was responding to questions about the posting.
Patrick's a good man. He's visited our area twice, and actually ran some seminars in our dojo. He and I see eye-to-eye about a more holistic (as opposed to stylistic) view of martial arts. If you go to his seminars with an empty cup, it's possible to see the underlying principles that tie many of our arts together.
I note that the Uechi people see Uechi kata in this form, and the Goju people see Goju kata. I've done both systems and am comfortable with how they intersect (today). What I see in the patterns of movements, the blading of the body, the stances, the orientation of the hands in double palms, etc. is more Goju than Uechi. But what I also see - which makes it appear more Uechi-like - is some serious open hand waza of a depth and breadth that you don't see in Goju today. But when you consider how Miyagi stripped the system of much of the empty hand techniques (right down to Sanchin kata), then you can see how this was probably the essence of Goju before Higashionna and Miyagi put their personal stamps on it.
The sophistication of the hand techniques of Kingai Ryu makes one realize how much Uechi Ryu preserved of the original China Hand. Naha Hand simplfies tesabaki (hand work) to many of the seiken waza (closed-fisted techniques) that Okinawa Te practitioners prefer.
There's one other thing to consider. From my experience, it appears that the Chinese are prolific choreographers, and don't necessarily feel the need to keep "a form" exactly as it was from generation to generation or sometime even practice to practice. Consequently when/if Kingai Ryu and Goju Ryu met the fork in the road, both systems likely evolved from that point forward. This is why the form appears to be a jumble of different Goju forms with the hands of Uechi thrown in. Not really... It's like seeing two species at a point in time, far past the point where their gene pools diverged. Both now are different from the point in time at which their populations split.
- Bill
Actually it was someone else asking questions of Patrick. I think he just did a post-and-run. I ran cover for him since it didn't appear he was responding to questions about the posting.
Patrick's a good man. He's visited our area twice, and actually ran some seminars in our dojo. He and I see eye-to-eye about a more holistic (as opposed to stylistic) view of martial arts. If you go to his seminars with an empty cup, it's possible to see the underlying principles that tie many of our arts together.
I note that the Uechi people see Uechi kata in this form, and the Goju people see Goju kata. I've done both systems and am comfortable with how they intersect (today). What I see in the patterns of movements, the blading of the body, the stances, the orientation of the hands in double palms, etc. is more Goju than Uechi. But what I also see - which makes it appear more Uechi-like - is some serious open hand waza of a depth and breadth that you don't see in Goju today. But when you consider how Miyagi stripped the system of much of the empty hand techniques (right down to Sanchin kata), then you can see how this was probably the essence of Goju before Higashionna and Miyagi put their personal stamps on it.
The sophistication of the hand techniques of Kingai Ryu makes one realize how much Uechi Ryu preserved of the original China Hand. Naha Hand simplfies tesabaki (hand work) to many of the seiken waza (closed-fisted techniques) that Okinawa Te practitioners prefer.
There's one other thing to consider. From my experience, it appears that the Chinese are prolific choreographers, and don't necessarily feel the need to keep "a form" exactly as it was from generation to generation or sometime even practice to practice. Consequently when/if Kingai Ryu and Goju Ryu met the fork in the road, both systems likely evolved from that point forward. This is why the form appears to be a jumble of different Goju forms with the hands of Uechi thrown in. Not really... It's like seeing two species at a point in time, far past the point where their gene pools diverged. Both now are different from the point in time at which their populations split.
- Bill
