Got to move, and be mean.
Uechi vs Headlocks
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fivedragons
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fivedragons
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As far as the side headlock, big deal. You could just sit there and wait all day if that is all they are going to do. We have a tendency to panic when constricted, but really just claustrophobia, or the need to overpower.
Depends on the situation, it's not the "headlock of doom", but it you're being held while someone else is being attacked, or you are being held for others to attack you, becomes something else.
Also depends on the situation whether you might allow this kind of thing to happen in the first place. If your "fighting" with someone, you might allow this to happen.
If you are "surviving", you might take different measures. This kind of thing doesn't happen in a vacuum.
Depends on the situation, it's not the "headlock of doom", but it you're being held while someone else is being attacked, or you are being held for others to attack you, becomes something else.
Also depends on the situation whether you might allow this kind of thing to happen in the first place. If your "fighting" with someone, you might allow this to happen.
If you are "surviving", you might take different measures. This kind of thing doesn't happen in a vacuum.
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Bill Glasheen
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- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
There are a couple of interesting points made that I'd like to emphasize.
To Van and his LEO friend, I share Mike's emphasis.
Now and then when cross-training in grappling styles, I came upon an a$$hole who either was out of control or had some kind of unknowable agenda. I generally had confidence from my core training that I could just stop their execution with simple control of my own posture and centering. If you've done a decade of good Sanchin training, you know what I'm talking about here. The same would be true if you were a good athlete and had spent years on the playing field.
Yes... Unless you have a solid foundation, that "trick" technique takes a lot of work to execute at the moment of truth. Folks forget about that, or don't want to think about it. There's no free lunch.
) about this on my forum all the time.
This is the way I look at it. If you study 4 martial arts and you need 4 times the effort of studying 1 martial art to get proficient in each, then you're doing something very, very wrong. It's like studying your 3rd and 4th language. Don't tell me it takes an equal amount of effort as with the first to start de novo and get to a certain level of proficiency.
You can compartmentalize if you want. To me, that's a terrible waste of brain resources. As much as you argue that you don't "see" this in that, your brain is doing it anyway. Everything else is just semantics for the style jockeys.
Me? I study martial arts. The more I make connections and reduce things down to simple principles, the more "style" becomes "me." As Mike might say, it's The Borg in me.
To that point, and emphasizing a point I made earlier...
The thing is... if you don't know how to do a Sanchin turn correctly with proper control of center, then forgetaboutit. And if your opponent is smart enough to take your center away from you by first kicking at the back of your knee, then forgetaboutit.
No ... free ... lunch. We all have to work at this stuff. And the more tools we bring to the job, the more likely we'll get the job done. This is particularly true given the myriad ways that these choke and headlock techniques can materialize.
And to fivedragon's point, it's particularly true given the myriad contexts that the victim can find himself in. Does the sport grappler really have an advantage in the many-on-one context? Not really...
My opinions, of course.
- Bill
To Van and his LEO friend, I share Mike's emphasis.
Where Uechi Ryu shines isn't so much in the "what to do" realm, but "how to do it." I've studied a long time in many styles, and see that point driven home every day. At the end of the day, execution is what it's all about. And if you don't have good solid fundamentals of movement, all the "tricks" in the world aren't going to help you.Mike K wrote:
Fred,
I agree. Anyone can learn a technique in one sitting, but it takes a lot of practice to make it part of ones toolkit. I think that's something that many forget or don't want to think about.
Now and then when cross-training in grappling styles, I came upon an a$$hole who either was out of control or had some kind of unknowable agenda. I generally had confidence from my core training that I could just stop their execution with simple control of my own posture and centering. If you've done a decade of good Sanchin training, you know what I'm talking about here. The same would be true if you were a good athlete and had spent years on the playing field.
Yes... Unless you have a solid foundation, that "trick" technique takes a lot of work to execute at the moment of truth. Folks forget about that, or don't want to think about it. There's no free lunch.
We get into discussions (arguments??f.Channel wrote:
I do practice 4 distinct martial arts systems. What I don't do is take a move from jujitsu and say it was "hidden" in a kata all along.
) about this on my forum all the time.This is the way I look at it. If you study 4 martial arts and you need 4 times the effort of studying 1 martial art to get proficient in each, then you're doing something very, very wrong. It's like studying your 3rd and 4th language. Don't tell me it takes an equal amount of effort as with the first to start de novo and get to a certain level of proficiency.
You can compartmentalize if you want. To me, that's a terrible waste of brain resources. As much as you argue that you don't "see" this in that, your brain is doing it anyway. Everything else is just semantics for the style jockeys.
Me? I study martial arts. The more I make connections and reduce things down to simple principles, the more "style" becomes "me." As Mike might say, it's The Borg in me.
To that point, and emphasizing a point I made earlier...
If you don't see a simple Sanchin turn in that escape - however difficult the actual execution - then you just want to argue.
The thing is... if you don't know how to do a Sanchin turn correctly with proper control of center, then forgetaboutit. And if your opponent is smart enough to take your center away from you by first kicking at the back of your knee, then forgetaboutit.
No ... free ... lunch. We all have to work at this stuff. And the more tools we bring to the job, the more likely we'll get the job done. This is particularly true given the myriad ways that these choke and headlock techniques can materialize.
And to fivedragon's point, it's particularly true given the myriad contexts that the victim can find himself in. Does the sport grappler really have an advantage in the many-on-one context? Not really...
My opinions, of course.
- Bill
Mike
Like what you mentioned once about not being a problem at all defeating a huge pro ball player?
How about this guy
Or this guy
Or maybe facing this guy on the street who doesn’t practice sanchin turns for his soccer game or Sanchin kata to develop kicking power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9fTic7xyCc
BTW,
Bridget has had 14 fights so far...yesterday she trained at Micky Ward's 'Stable' in Chelmsford, and when she squared off with him in the ring, the whole place froze.
She can throw 7 powerful blinding punches in one second/two in a quarter second.
She can go 30 _ three minutes rounds.
She won the Marathon without ever running one before and while stuffing rags in the holes of her sneakers.
Last night she demonstrated how you can successfully 'block' with your face while keeping your 'distance' facing her in a fight.
That's another 'athlete' we could defeat with no problem in one on one on the street?
One of her body shots should be experienced by all the 'sanchin armored' believers.
Some people you just don't !!@# with
Good question, Mike. Not sure, will have to ask him when I see him next.Van,
How long is the special training in hours and what is the frequency of training?
Really think so Bill?I do practice 4 distinct martial arts systems. What I don't do is take a move from jujitsu and say it was "hidden" in a kata all along. The headlock move I practice is from Nihon Jujitsu Goshin Ho Kata. A variation of it is from Judo
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animatio ... uinage.htm
I agree, Fred. BTW this ‘scoop throw’ was the first defensive tactic shown to me in Judo against a ‘school yard’ headlock.
It is good unless the lock is applied by a ‘pachyderm’Precisely Fred. People who believe so _ are of the ‘Build it and they will come’ mentality.I think any Uechi student who trains in a grappling system will see the opportunities in the kata, kumite and bunkai. But without long term cross training will not do it effectively.
As you say in order for that defense to work …it must be a dedicated practice.Good point Ray.…rear strangle ...someone gets one of those on you and you are done.....
Last night we had ‘Honeymooners’ [Jim Maloney and Bridget] at a ‘foxhole’ party…with Joey Pomfret and Art Rabesa also in attendance. We discussed this at length with on the floor demonstrations.
Pomfret said the same thing…if you get ‘clamped’ …especially when you are on your stomach on the ground; having been knocked down in a multiple assailant attack…it’s all over.
Unless you can respond immediately ‘Fighting the first arm’ as it encircles the neck[here he was showing some interesting counters] you will not make it, very likely, as those chokes will fog your brain and put you out almost instantaneously.Indeed Fred. Remember the scene in the Godfather movie?Of course put a shoelace or wire in their hands and put that around their neck and goodbye....
RayJoey Pomfret essentially feels the same way. He says that choke comes on out of nowhere under the fog of the chemical cocktail in a real fight, especially when you are facing multiple opponents….think of my trooper friend entering some night club/bar after a 911 call, and finding himself in the midst of a drunken brawl where someone may put a choke on him and another will try to swipe his gun.I have no confidence in any escapes I've been shown for that move.....unless the attack is done in a really compliant and half arsed way…the ways the guys are doing it on the clip is a lot tamer than the way we did it....you can count in Nano seconds until you hit the Yak kah kah and the lights go out.
“protecting his gun” and ‘defending’ against a choke must not be ‘assumed’ as most of us do …a single opponent affair…and what imprints when practicing in multiple opponents scenarios etc.
This is what my Trooper friend and other troopers are concerned with.
5D lays this out wellBillAs far as the side headlock, big deal. You could just sit there and wait all day if that is all they are going to do. We have a tendency to panic when constricted, but really just claustrophobia, or the need to overpower.
Depends on the situation, it's not the "headlock of doom", but it you're being held while someone else is being attacked, or you are being held for others to attack you, becomes something else.
There are defenses against the RNC, but they have to be instinctive and instantaneous with the movement of the aggressor. No good if you let it sink in.
Got to move, and be meanTrue enough…in last night’s discussion…Rabesa, Maloney, Pomfret and I…all shared the same view.Where Uechi Ryu shines isn't so much in the "what to do" realm, but "how to do it." I've studied a long time in many styles, and see that point driven home every day. At the end of the day, execution is what it's all about. And if you don't have good solid fundamentals of movement, all the "tricks" in the world aren't going to help you.
Joey in particular likened it to a well tuned engine with the right mechanical lines of force moving efficiently and explosively.
However he won’t agree that certain defenses, such as the ones against the chokes that can applied under various circumstances, are something we should rely on being ‘built in’ _ that is foolishness.
Also the BJJ or plain JJ ‘engine’ develops similar effective ‘horsepower’ in lines of force and direction.That goes without saying…even the ‘trick techniques’ of a good soccer player on the field, require a solid foundation in ball control.Unless you have a solid foundation, that "trick" technique takes a lot of work to execute at the moment of truth. Folks forget about that, or don't want to think about it. There's no free lunch.
And I wouldn’t call an effective JJ technique a ‘trick technique’ … JJ was founded upon battlefield efficiency…to wit _ Rory Miller’s practice.
I wonder what he is thinking while reading all this about ‘trick techniques’ _Bill,The thing is... if you don't know how to do a Sanchin turn correctly with proper control of center, then forgetaboutit. And if your opponent is smart enough to take your center away from you by first kicking at the back of your knee, then forgetaboutit.
Joey Pomfret was showing last night how BJJ students/ fighters _ train to do ‘neck tucks’ ‘neck turns’ into the crook of the elbow so they can breathe, and how they must turn/pivot on one foot using a strong center to effect many escapes and counters.
I think that we should not be so quick to imply that only Uechi people can ‘turn’ effectively…as any JJ practitioner reading this, will think we are nothing but ‘airheads’ _Really think so Bill?Does the sport grappler really have an advantage in the many-on-one context? Not really...
Like what you mentioned once about not being a problem at all defeating a huge pro ball player?
How about this guy
Or this guy
Or maybe facing this guy on the street who doesn’t practice sanchin turns for his soccer game or Sanchin kata to develop kicking power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9fTic7xyCc
MikeGood question, Mike. Not sure, will have to ask him when I see him next.Van,
How long is the special training in hours and what is the frequency of training?I agree, Fred. BTW this ‘scoop throw’ was the first defensive tactic shown to me in Judo against a ‘school yard’ headlock. It is good unless the lock is applied by a ‘pachyderm’I do practice 4 distinct martial arts systems. What I don't do is take a move from jujitsu and say it was "hidden" in a kata all along. The headlock move I practice is from Nihon Jujitsu Goshin Ho Kata. A variation of it is from Judo http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animatio ... uinage.htmPrecisely Fred. People who believe so are of the ‘Build it and they will come’ mentality.I think any Uechi student who trains in a grappling system will see the opportunities in the kata, kumite and bunkai. But without long term cross training will not do it effectively.
As you say in order for that defense to work …it must be a dedicated practice.Good point Ray.…rear strangle ...someone gets one of those on you and you are done.....
Last night we had ‘Honeymooners’ [Jim Maloney and Bridget] at a ‘foxhole’ party…with Joey Pomfret and Art Rabesa also in attendance. We discussed this at length with on the floor demonstrations.
Pomfret said the same thing…if you get ‘clamped’ …especially when you are on your stomach on the ground; having been knocked down in a multiple assailant attack…it’s all over.
Unless you can respond immediately ‘Fighting the first arm’ as it encircles the neck[here he was showing some interesting counters] you will not make it, very likely, as those chokes will fog your brain and put you out almost instantaneously.Indeed Fred. Remember the scene in the Godfather movie?Of course put a shoelace or wire in their hands and put that around their neck and goodbye....
RayJoey Pomfret essentially feels the same way. He says that choke comes on out of nowhere under the fog of the chemical cocktail in a real fight, especially when you are facing multiple opponents….think of my trooper friend entering some night club/bar after a 911 call, and finding himself in the midst of a drunken brawl where someone may put a choke on him and another will try to swipe his gun.I have no confidence in any escapes I've been shown for that move.....unless the attack is done in a really compliant and half arsed way…the ways the guys are doing it on the clip is a lot tamer than the way we did it....you can count in Nano seconds until you hit the Yak kah kah and the lights go out.
“protecting his gun” and ‘defending’ against a choke must not be ‘assumed’ as most of us do …a single opponent affair…and what imprints when practicing in multiple opponents scenarios etc.
This is what my Trooper friend and other troopers are concerned with.
5D lays this out wellBillAs far as the side headlock, big deal. You could just sit there and wait all day if that is all they are going to do. We have a tendency to panic when constricted, but really just claustrophobia, or the need to overpower.
Depends on the situation, it's not the "headlock of doom", but it you're being held while someone else is being attacked, or you are being held for others to attack you, becomes something else.
There are defenses against the RNC, but they have to be instinctive and instantaneous with the movement of the aggressor. No good if you let it sink in.
Got to move, and be meanTrue enough…in last night’s discussion…Rabesa, Maloney, Pomfret and I…all shared the same view.Where Uechi Ryu shines isn't so much in the "what to do" realm, but "how to do it." I've studied a long time in many styles, and see that point driven home every day. At the end of the day, execution is what it's all about. And if you don't have good solid fundamentals of movement, all the "tricks" in the world aren't going to help you.
Joey in particular likened it to a well tuned engine with the right mechanical lines of force moving efficiently and explosively.
However he won’t agree that certain defenses, such as the ones against the chokes that can applied under various circumstances, are something we should rely on being ‘built in’ _ that is foolishness.
Also the BJJ or plain JJ ‘engine’ develops similar effective ‘horsepower’ in lines of force and direction.That goes without saying…even the ‘trick techniques’ of a good soccer player on the field, require a solid foundation in ball control.Unless you have a solid foundation, that "trick" technique takes a lot of work to execute at the moment of truth. Folks forget about that, or don't want to think about it. There's no free lunch.
And I wouldn’t call an effective JJ technique a ‘trick technique’ … JJ was founded upon battlefield efficiency…to wit _ Rory Miller’s practice. I wonder what he is think while reading all this about ‘trick techniques’ _Bill,The thing is... if you don't know how to do a Sanchin turn correctly with proper control of center, then forgetaboutit. And if your opponent is smart enough to take your center away from you by first kicking at the back of your knee, then forgetaboutit.
Joey Pomfret was showing last night how BJJ students/ fighters _ train to do ‘neck tucks’ ‘neck turns’ into the crook of the elbow so they can breathe, and how they must turn/pivot on one foot using a strong center to effect many escapes and counters.
I think that we should not be so quick to imply that only Uechi people can ‘turn’ effectively…as any JJ practitioner reading this, will think we are nothing but ‘airheads’ _Does the sport grappler really have an advantage in the many-on-one context? Not really...
Like what you mentioned once about not being a problem at all defeating a huge pro ball player?
How about this guy
Or this guy
Or maybe facing this guy on the street who doesn’t practice sanchin turns for his soccer game or Sanchin kata to develop kicking power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9fTic7xyCc
BTW,
Bridget has had 14 fights so far...yesterday she trained at Micky Ward's 'Stable' in Chelmsford, and when she squared off with him in the ring, the whole place froze.
She can throw 7 powerful blinding punches in one second/two in a quarter second.
She can go 30 _ three minutes rounds.
She won the Marathon without ever running one before and while stuffing rags in the holes of her sneakers.
Last night she demonstrated how you can successfully 'block' with your face while keeping your 'distance' facing her in a fight.
That's another 'athlete' we could defeat with no problem in one on one on the street?
One of her body shots should be experienced by all the 'sanchin armored' believers.
Some people you just don't !!@# with
Van
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Bill Glasheen
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Van
What are you selling, an approach to fighting or DNA? Give me Tyler Hansbrough (pictured above) and I can have him clean someone's clock with any approach. But that isn't the point, is it?
But just to argue... Your mighty Tyler has his issues on the court. Fantastic heart, but he gets the cr@p beat out of him on the court.
My point above was that a sport fighter spends his time with the dual in a refereed match. The best sport fighters are good fighters - period. But let's be scientific about it, OK? Give me the randomized, controlled trial. Half go to sport fighting, and half go to some other venue. If most of your guys, quit, well... that counts against you. It isn't a process of natural selection, but rather what useful information we can transfer to some fellow (a LEO) which he can take to the field.
I can't teach someone how to be a genetic freak.
- Bill
What are you selling, an approach to fighting or DNA? Give me Tyler Hansbrough (pictured above) and I can have him clean someone's clock with any approach. But that isn't the point, is it?
But just to argue... Your mighty Tyler has his issues on the court. Fantastic heart, but he gets the cr@p beat out of him on the court.
My point above was that a sport fighter spends his time with the dual in a refereed match. The best sport fighters are good fighters - period. But let's be scientific about it, OK? Give me the randomized, controlled trial. Half go to sport fighting, and half go to some other venue. If most of your guys, quit, well... that counts against you. It isn't a process of natural selection, but rather what useful information we can transfer to some fellow (a LEO) which he can take to the field.
I can't teach someone how to be a genetic freak.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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Not at all. And again, that's my comment about a Sanchin turn taken out of context.Bill Glasheen wrote:
Bill,
Joey Pomfret was showing last night how BJJ students/ fighters _ train to do ‘neck tucks’ ‘neck turns’ into the crook of the elbow so they can breathe, and how they must turn/pivot on one foot using a strong center to effect many escapes and counters.
I think that we should not be so quick to imply that only Uechi people can ‘turn’ effectively…as any JJ practitioner reading this, will think we are nothing but ‘airheads’
My comment about Mike K's example with the fellow turning and a good Sanchin had to do with Fred talking about 4 styles and insisting he wanted to keep them all separate. He won't allow himself to "see" a JJ technique in a karate kata move. And me? I say nonsense. If you can't see the fundamental principles driving all good martial styles, then you don't have your brain in gear and you're operating in a highly inefficient manner in your cross training.
To say it takes less incremental work to learn a 3rd or a 4th language isn't disparaging the language, Van, is it? It's merely pointing out the obvious - that there's a lot of shared knowledge out there which we all use.
- Bill
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f.Channell
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I don't keep them separate in my use. Muscle memory will not allow it.
What I don't do is say there is some oriental treasure lurking in all the forms which allow us without training the application to miraculously pull secrets from them and disarm all comers.
But next time I'm at an ATM and someone throws a RNC on me I have to remember all I need to do is Sanchin turn. Of course I can do that while being leaned back 20 degrees and possibly have a knife or a gun at my back.
What I don't do is say there is some oriental treasure lurking in all the forms which allow us without training the application to miraculously pull secrets from them and disarm all comers.
But next time I'm at an ATM and someone throws a RNC on me I have to remember all I need to do is Sanchin turn. Of course I can do that while being leaned back 20 degrees and possibly have a knife or a gun at my back.
Sans Peur Ne Obliviscaris
www.hinghamkarate.com
www.hinghamkarate.com
My 2 cents on this.
Eastern martial arts history is full of stories of not just cross-training but where a student learns from multiple teachers and then synthesizes it into a form that works for him, creating his style which he then passes along to his students (who may or may not also learn from other teachers). Within Uechi Ryu, we have the legend that the supposed historical Shushiwa (Zhou Zi He) learned from 3 teachers to create what he taught; and Kanbun Uechi reportedly trained under 4 Okinawan teachers before going to China and training under Shushiwa. How much did what Kanbun learned under those 4 affect his processing of the training under Shushiwa and ultimately influence what he taught? We will never know.
What a teacher synthesizes to ideally work for himself will not necessarily work ideally for all his students however. Yes, a teacher should be able to adapt what he teaches to some extent to meet the needs of a bigger or smaller person, for example, but he will still be primarily working within the framework of what he himself has learned. Add to this that a teacher will generally emphasize those aspects of what he was taught that work well for him, and de-emphasize what he was taught that does not work as well. The end result is all flavors of styles that exist.
All too many students stay with a single style/teacher their whole martial career, and many of those simply train in that style rather than synthesizing it into something more their own...and more unfortunately some teachers promote, even require, this limited concept of training. Most likely this does not result in these students reaching their full potential, unless they are very similar in ability to their teacher. We should not assume that what Kanbun synthesized that enabled him to develop a kick-butt reputation will automatically do the same for each of us who are training in Uechi Ryu. To some extent we should all be synthesizing our own 'styles', even if it is just a flavor within Uechi Ryu, with the appropriate foundations and principles of course, rather than mindlessly doing what our teachers do/teach. And this need to make it our own is really what I hear when I read what teachers like Van and Bill (and others) write. What can help many students with this is to look outside their primary style, to help open their eyes to what their teacher may not be emphasizing, or may not know even about his own style.
Eastern martial arts history is full of stories of not just cross-training but where a student learns from multiple teachers and then synthesizes it into a form that works for him, creating his style which he then passes along to his students (who may or may not also learn from other teachers). Within Uechi Ryu, we have the legend that the supposed historical Shushiwa (Zhou Zi He) learned from 3 teachers to create what he taught; and Kanbun Uechi reportedly trained under 4 Okinawan teachers before going to China and training under Shushiwa. How much did what Kanbun learned under those 4 affect his processing of the training under Shushiwa and ultimately influence what he taught? We will never know.
What a teacher synthesizes to ideally work for himself will not necessarily work ideally for all his students however. Yes, a teacher should be able to adapt what he teaches to some extent to meet the needs of a bigger or smaller person, for example, but he will still be primarily working within the framework of what he himself has learned. Add to this that a teacher will generally emphasize those aspects of what he was taught that work well for him, and de-emphasize what he was taught that does not work as well. The end result is all flavors of styles that exist.
All too many students stay with a single style/teacher their whole martial career, and many of those simply train in that style rather than synthesizing it into something more their own...and more unfortunately some teachers promote, even require, this limited concept of training. Most likely this does not result in these students reaching their full potential, unless they are very similar in ability to their teacher. We should not assume that what Kanbun synthesized that enabled him to develop a kick-butt reputation will automatically do the same for each of us who are training in Uechi Ryu. To some extent we should all be synthesizing our own 'styles', even if it is just a flavor within Uechi Ryu, with the appropriate foundations and principles of course, rather than mindlessly doing what our teachers do/teach. And this need to make it our own is really what I hear when I read what teachers like Van and Bill (and others) write. What can help many students with this is to look outside their primary style, to help open their eyes to what their teacher may not be emphasizing, or may not know even about his own style.
This assumes that the people creating the kata way back when were oblivious to jujitsu and similar techniques. No one in China or Okinawa used headlocks or choke holds (or throws, etc)? There is a difference between a technique not being in a kata at all and it being there but not being taught. A move is only hidden if you do not know about it after all, and to me a lot of the so-called hidden moves that seem to come out of kata are really just techniques that are not being actively taught.f.Channell wrote: What I don't do is take a move from jujitsu and say it was "hidden" in a kata all along.
F.
Glenn
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maxwell ainley
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Jake Steinmann
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At the risk of jumping into a conversation where I'm somewhat ignorant...I think Fred and Bill might both be right, and Fred and Bill might also both be wrong.
I think that Bill has a point, in that, within the movements of the various Uechi kata, there's probably some that are of use in trying to escape a headlock. (I say probably because I'm not a Uechi guy, so I haven't put much thought into the Uechi kata. Others who have can speak better to this.)
However, I think that Fred has a very valid point, which is that the value of those movements matters very little if you've never actually practiced getting out of a headlock. The only way to know the answer is to have someone authentically grab a hold of you, slap you in a headlock, and then look for answers. (If you've never done this before, you should probably start slow).
Just my .002, for whatever that's worth in this economy.
I think that Bill has a point, in that, within the movements of the various Uechi kata, there's probably some that are of use in trying to escape a headlock. (I say probably because I'm not a Uechi guy, so I haven't put much thought into the Uechi kata. Others who have can speak better to this.)
However, I think that Fred has a very valid point, which is that the value of those movements matters very little if you've never actually practiced getting out of a headlock. The only way to know the answer is to have someone authentically grab a hold of you, slap you in a headlock, and then look for answers. (If you've never done this before, you should probably start slow).
Just my .002, for whatever that's worth in this economy.
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Bill Glasheen
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- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Not so. Fred knows that his karate kata moves, deeply embedded, will emerge instinctively and augment a ‘dedicated’ JJ technique he is learning, he does not need to be reminded of it. The imprint is there. To witMy comment about Mike K's example with the fellow turning and a good Sanchin had to do with Fred talking about 4 styles and insisting he wanted to keep them all separate. He won't allow himself to "see" a JJ technique in a karate kata move.
This is critical. If a student came to a dojo asking to learn counters to chokes and head locks as the habitual acts of physical violence he fears, and he were told not to worry, that he has no need to be shown specific counters as taught in Judo/JJ etc., because all that he needs will emerge out of the kata in time…and his father/her husband etc., pulled the student out one week later… I’d say the sensei deserved it.I don't keep them separate in my use. Muscle memory will not allow it.
What I don't do is say there is some oriental treasure lurking in all the forms which allow us without training the application to miraculously pull secrets from them and disarm all comers.
Glenn’s post is a good one.
Here, I say, yes and no. Certain systems emphasize and imprint more specific concepts than others. You need to get into the specifics of certain counters against certain attacks to become proficient against them as opposed to the a ‘fields of dreams’ attitude “build it and they will come” _A move is only hidden if you do not know about it after all, and to me a lot of the so-called hidden moves that seem to come out of kata are really just techniques that are not being actively taught.
The best approach is to become better rounded, such as the skills that Joey Pomfret’s drill of basic escapes locks etc. that he devised for Uechi students and George approved a few years back.
Becoming ‘well rounded’ means obtaining specialized instruction in certain aspects of grapple attacks and defense, by an experienced teacher in such things, such as a Joey Pomfret, rather than have some Uechi sensei on the floor blundering through his understanding of ‘kata concepts’ that will work against a RNC, as an example, without the input of a specialist in that regard.
We had this discussion and demonstration over at the ‘Foxhole’ Saturday night with Joey, Art Rabesa, Maloney and Bridget.
It’s really a ‘no brainer’ …according to Rabesa.
And then we have the sobering thought of Bridget, now with 14 boxing fights under her ‘belt’ …who will hit you with KO type punches, from a distance of six feet, 7 punches per second, two punches in a quarter second.
By the time you perceive a need for defense, you are already out cold.
Good point Jake and it goes without saying. But the practice should include specific, dedicated counters to chokes etc. as found in a system that is designed for that specific focus…living the fields of dreams approach at home.However, I think that Fred has a very valid point, which is that the value of those movements matters very little if you've never actually practiced getting out of a headlock. The only way to know the answer is to have someone authentically grab a hold of you, slap you in a headlock, and then look for answers.
If this weren’t true…why is it that George approved the Joey Pomfret’s drill designed to be practiced by Uechi students?
Van
