Uechi vs Headlocks

[Bill Glasheen]

• Why is it that I chose to study for 3 years with a special forces instructor with dan rank both in judo and aikido? (Other than the fact that he first sought ME out to round out his Goju with my Uechi expertise)
• Why is it that I get down on the mat at camp with Joey, and let him do his thing to me and with me? Oh and if I've never mentioned it, what a pleasure that is. It's a true Walter Mitty experience.
• Why is it that at UVa I had "aikido night" every Thursday night? (FWIW, I'm a certified instructor in aikido.) I would first teach the class a technique. I'd have them pair up and try it. And then I'd pick out a couple of examples worthy of critique. I'd ask the class to watch, and then tell them to use the language of Uechi Ryu and Sanchin to explain why their execution was lacking.
• Why are there so many mixed martial artists in Uechi Ryu - particularly those who mix a grappling art with the Uechi style? In that list I would include myself, Jack Summers, Joey Pomfret, Sal Jabbar (my "grand student" who is 6th dan in jujitsu), Mike Murphy, Marty Dow, Bob Galeone, Fred, Van, etc., etc.
• Why have I seen more styles outside of Uechi Ryu in a Mattson Uechi camp than I see in my own city?
• Why am I proud of being told "That's not Uechi!!!"

Becoming ‘well rounded’ means obtaining specialized instruction in certain aspects of grapple attacks and defense, by an experienced teacher in such things, such as a Joey Pomfret, rather than have some Uechi sensei on the floor blundering through his understanding of ‘kata concepts’ that will work against a RNC, as an example, without the input of a specialist in that regard.

Just who is this hypothetical Uechi sensei? Where are we going with this introspective analysis and critique?

When is it time for an instructor who "owns" his training to stop worrying about what others say and think. and get on with the journey of learning how to fight?

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Just who is this hypothetical Uechi sensei? Where are we going with this introspective analysis and critique?

Just a general comment my friend...not aimed at you...so relax, will you.

I could have made the same remark…when you picked on my student ‘Fred’ …but I did not.

Where are we going with this introspective analysis and critique?

There you go again, Bill…this is a forum discussion and it can go anyway you personally want to perceive it to be.

Just stick to the subject, which I believe is of interest. People are not interested in what we you, others – I _ did or can do…the interest is in concepts…

The fact is that, yes, we can apply our Uechi principles in anything we do in life, grappling etc.

But it is a no brainer that someone will be better at dealing with headlocks and rear naked chokes, if he obtains more specialized/dedicated training addressing such attacks _ within which _ his/her Uechi concepts can emerge.

The 'worry' on how to fight, in case you missed the point...is not ours but...that of a State trooper asking what is best to learn such defenses.

[Bill Glasheen]

I'm just challenging your modus operandi, Van. That's what we do here, right? Keep each other on our toes?

My questions are valid, I think. Take our friend Mr. Rabesa. He is a highly respected practitioner of the art. Is he a Uechi Sensei? Or is he "Art" and cannot be defined by the style he happens to practice?

I once remember a lunch we shared where he told me that he knew how to fight before he ever did his first Sanchin. I believe "the style" just helped him codify what he already brought to the table. So is it Uechi, or is it "Art"?

The original theme was "Uechi vs. Headlocks", and the willing student is a State Trooper. Fine... Do we not have Uechi instructors out there (Joey, Art, yourself, Sal, Jack Summers, etc., etc.) who can bring useful information to the table? If so, is it "Uechi", is it the man, is it the mix, or is it something else?

I could have made the same remark…when you picked on my student ‘Fred’ …but I did not.

I've known Fred for years, and we talk about all kinds of subjects. I'm aware of the many arts he practices and teaches. I never knew he studied with you.

But to your point... I did not "pick on" Fred. I challenged his idea. That's what we do here; we discuss ideas.

I STILL challenge Fred's idea. And Fred may STILL disagree with me. And I'm perfectly fine with that.

I refuse to parse techniques into neat little buckets and say they must only be here, and everything else is a figment of our "hidden technique" imagination. Once again... I am proud of being told "That's not Uechi!!" again and again and again.

At the end of the day, it's all fighting. We have different approaches to learning the same material. Individually we have different levels of expertise, and different degrees of willingness to get on the mat or floor and see how it really works. Or not....

There are no "hidden techniques" in kata in my book. There are only uninformed students of the fighting arts we all love. And once someone can make the connection, whose right is it to say they can't use the movement in kata as a kinesthetic mnemonic? How ARE we going to keep all this "stuff" in our brains if we don't have structure to our knowledge?

But that's me.

I realize there are people out there with encyclopedic minds who like to label and categorize and box in this vs. that vs. something else. Good for them. Not so good for me. I just want to know how it works, and want to find a way to build the muscle memory.

- Bill

[IJ]

Good discussion, just have a few comments from the perspective of a Uechi person who's been doing BJJ a little over two years:

I think there's some blurring of the effects of headlocks vs the RNC. Getting headlocked isn't going to knock you out in 5 seconds. People who can do a RNC aren't going to pick a headlock; counters are numerous and lead to big disadvantages, and all you really get from it is forcing someone to the ground or just bending them over to punch their head in. Neither is fun but neither presents the immediate threat of death or total incapacity that an RNC (or guillotine, etc) does.

I agree that it matters not at all if one has all the requisite "tools" in their martial art for a headlock or RNC. You can have a cookbook, whisk, a couple pans and an oven in your kitchen, but if you're given 5 seconds to get a souffle right or pass out, you're hosed unless you own that technique--not just visit occasionally, you gotta live there. I haven't seen headlock defense covered in a Uechi class... if there are schools out there that do it, well, they've got to have regular self defense nights to make it work (and have students with animal instincts as discussed above) it's not going to work well.

My simple approach for an RNC/guillotine/headlock is, pull the arm around your neck down to relieve pressure. In a headlock, you're commonly worried about the other arm puching you, so the obvious arm to use is the one on the outside.

Then you turn to face the attacker, to move your throat off his radius. No brainer, there, too.

Since the guy may be punching you, your other hand should be moving under his arm and hooking to prevent this. Now your primary risk is getting taken down (bad for Uechi, although principles remain; not so bad for BJJ, unless your attacker has friends, but then, life is going to be hard for at least a few minutes no matter what, right?).

With a rooted turn, preventing his legs from following either with your free hand or your legs, as circumstances dictate, turn into the opponent and take him down so you end up at his side. The headlock now is good for you, and you hope he tries to finish it.

Securing your base and mounting is an immediate concern so you don't end up on the bottom. At that point, you can release the headlock with an arm frame and some body mechanics, and the exposed arm is available for an arm bar, or, you may want to lay on the strikes and or make your escape.

There's another quick approach which is to throw both your legs horizontal and into his calves from behind, causing him to fall backward. You have to continue to swoop your legs through and under his feet to secure the side position, but if you have the right circumstances to launch this counter, it can be pretty effective.

The scoop and dump judo cartoon may have a role as well and there's a way to look up and regain your posture prying the arm off your neck with your body that allows you to pop your head between the arm and body and control the back too, but that hasn't worked as well for me, I think because once I'm in a headlock I'm basically 90 degrees forward by then due to my height.

[Van Canna]

And once someone can make the connection, whose right is it to say they can't use the movement in kata as a kinesthetic mnemonic? How ARE we going to keep all this "stuff" in our brains if we don't have structure to our knowledge?

Surely we can, but if you add ‘dedicated’ technique, such as ‘combat jutsu’…for example, what Rory studies and teaches, then you increase the effectiveness of our ‘connection’ exponentially.

I realize there are people out there with encyclopedic minds who like to label and categorize and box in this vs. that vs. something else. Good for them. Not so good for me. I just want to know how it works, and want to find a way to build the muscle memory.

And that’s fine…Each one of us sees it differently.

I for one would not tell my students to rely on choke escapes, by practicing Uechi principles only.

Never..never…

I do encourage them to seek out the ‘dedicated’ cross training of a Joey Pomfret down the street from me, especially if I am talking to A State Trooper immersed in a world of violence.

And I know they will be twice as good…and I do have some extremely powerful students, who don’t need karate or JJ to put someone/anyone in a box.

Can you answer this question? Why did George agree with the need of BJJ ‘cross training’ and dedicated practice of a program designed by Joe Pomfret, which I believe can still be purchased on Video?

Did George think it useful or wasteful or unnecessary?

We could do an experiment at camp…

One teacher brings several students with training to escape chokes by using only Uechi concepts….nothing more…

Another, will bring similarly trained students but with the addition of cross training by Joey Pomfret…all students of about same general skills, size and weight.

Then let’s have a few volunteers…surprise these two groups with RNCs and headlocks…

I know where I’ll put my money.

Uechi vs headlocks...

Yup...with and without the dedicated cross training...I'll take the one with the cross training, and I will recommend my students to do the same.

Especially if they are State troopers out in the mean streets.

[Van Canna]

Good post Ian...good advice.

In the end, as Joe Pomfret indicated the other night, the student with the added 'dedicated' JJ counters, will come up on top and will experience less panic that could wear him out quickly.

Possibly one reason why today 'eclectic' systems dojo seem to draw huge number of students.

[Van Canna]

BTW...I would love to see some input from Rory on this. If you are reading this, Rory, could you give us your impressions?

[Bill Glasheen]

Can you answer this question? Why did George agree with the need of BJJ ‘cross training’ and dedicated practice of a program designed by Joe Pomfret, which I believe can still be purchased on Video?

I am happy to answer your question. But let me start by answering your question with a question.

Why do most martial artists agree with the need for training outside of their 3 Sanchins, 3 Seisans, and 3 Sanseiryus? Why did I seek out the help of a strength trainer when at UVa? Why did Kanbun spend so much time training with jars?

Why do we spend so much time stretching?

I've often told my students that their karate does two things. The first thing it does is to make the body stronger, more agile, more powerful, and more martially savvy. The second thing it does is serve as a barometer for what else you need to do to continue with your martial training.

This is something I've repeated a lot in this thread, and it gets lost in the discussion. Most of us who practice the style long enough see the obvious need to grow what they do. Because it is an open-handed system (originally without even a seiken fist) and because it is originally about fighting and self-defense, the need to focus on grappling becomes apparent. How we do that varies from dojo to dojo. There's nothing "formal" in the curriculum to do that. But that's what being an advanced practitioner is about. As Glenn stated, even Kanbun's teacher had multiple (3) teachers. Kanbun himself had many teachers.

It's not an accident or a random event that Ian is now training with BJJ. I planted that seed in the first few months of his training by making ukemi a dojo requirement from the beginning. Once comfortable with going to the ground and getting back up again - and studying a style that likes to grab - there are any number of ways that one can go with that. And I don't restrict the direction people want to go. Many of my students have subsequently played judo, done BJJ, done Japanese JJ, practiced and even taught aikido, etc.

Tegumi used to be part of the foundation of Naha Te. Modern "classroom style" karate has lost some of the teaching and execution of this facet of their martial heritage. But it IS there in the kata. Some of the sessions I've had with Patrick McCarthy have helped me see where it exists in many traditional kata people practice (like Naihanshi).

I think mostly we're discussing semantics, Van, and that's fine. But to me, George's endorsement of Joey Pomfret's excursion into BJJ and MMA is a positive reflection both on the style and on his leadership in its growth. Joey's own personal journey is a reflection on his greater understanding of a martial way. In my view it's not in any way a sign of something lacking. Rather I see it as a sign of the many directions that the style compels us to go and grow.

What we call "it" is the biggest stumbling block.

In the end, as Joe Pomfret indicated the other night, the student with the added 'dedicated' JJ counters, will come up on top and will experience less panic that could wear him out quickly.

Possibly one reason why today 'eclectic' systems dojo seem to draw huge number of students.

And this is possibly a reason why "we" shouldn't restrict Uechi Ryu's growth, or our ability to link it at the core to any number of good grappling specialties. IMO the more we restrict what "it" is, the more we set ourselves up to kill what it is we do.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

In my view it's not in any way a sign of something lacking. Rather I see it as a sign of the many directions that the style compels us to go and grow.

Yeah, semantics all right…you facilitate the growth by going into ‘dedicated’ training against ‘dedicated’ assaults.

And this is possibly a reason why "we" shouldn't restrict Uechi Ryu's growth, or our ability to link it at the core to any number of good grappling specialties. IMO the more we restrict what "it" is, the more we set ourselves up to kill what it is we do.

Precisely my point in this thread.

[Bill Glasheen]

So, my friend, we come back to the same questions and issues that we discuss, argue about, ruminate over, etc. Here are a few of them that I believe are relevant to the discussion.

• What IS Uechi Ryu? Uechi experts - and I would include many who have posted here or have been mentioned - would define that differently.
• Why are so many Uechi practitioners so eclectic in their training? Why do we find the bridge to grappling so compelling? Is there something about the system that makes the benefit of cross-training so obvious?
• Who is an expert on what? A very smart mentor of mine (physician, Yale grad, etc.) once described an "expert" as "Someone from out of town with slides." Constantly I see it mentioned that we need to broaden our experiences. Constantly I am reminded that my teacher, George Mattson, makes all that possible because of the community he grew, the personalities he manages to keep together, the camps that he runs, and the encouragement he gives us all to grow and to explore. So when a "Uechi" person does the time, is he allowed to be such an expert? Or are experts only those other guys from out of town with slides?
  
  I happen to think my fellow Uechika (Sal Jabbar, Joey Pomfret, Dr. Ian, Fred, Jack Summers, myself along with the teachers who taught me, etc., etc.) qualify as "experts" to varying degrees when it comes to grappling.
• OK so let's get to Van's valid point, and ask some hard questions. Do we Uechika have an obligation to get off our butts and expand our horizons? Or are we as a group going to be satisfied with "the minimum requirements" and be done with it? What do we require? What do we encourage? What do we discourage? And through all of that, what does that make us as a Ryu?

Important points to ponder.

And let me start by saying that I do NOT have all the answers.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Correct, Bill...and here the opinions will be legion and seen through personal filters...

I posted this on my forum in reply to Jorvik's well taken comments:

Ray

Similarly in terms of actual combat they often do not realise the likely modus operendi of an attack but instead rehearse moves from some obscure kata rather than the actual thing they are likely to be confronted by.

As an example in a jiu jitsu club that I used to train in they concentrated in learning throws without realising that the block or evasion from an attack was much more important and would dictate how effective the actual throw could be, in another club they ignored attacks to the head.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


My answer:

...You make some good points Ray, and some of this we were discussing on Bill's forum in Uechi vs. chokes...

I think the bottom line here is a simple one in spite of all the opinions bantered about in the thread:

1. Karate is a striking art, such as Uechi_ mainly kick and punches, blocks and stances, despite the implications of a grapple skillset component to it that many take for granted.

2. Jujitsu is a grappling art (like wrestling) with joint locks, chokes and throws .

3.Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is rooted in self-defense, and has been adopted by the U.S. Military as well as law enforcement agencies around the country.

Founded on efficient movements and refined throughout the decades by the Gracie family and their students, this combat-tested method is intended to teach practical self-defense through submission grappling and the striking arts.

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu has been specifically designed to defend against punches, kicks ...joint locks, chokes and throws., headlocks, bear hugs, and many other common forms of street aggression.

~~

What should be obvious is that one needs both in order to become a more well rounded fighter, with skillsets from the two arts merging naturally.

This was the main reason why our formidable Joey Pomfret, came up with a wonderful grapple segment designed for Uechi people to complement their defensive applications.

As you say, the evasion aspect before a choke, as an example, locks on...is extremely important...however the dedicated cross training into BJJ, as an example, is of great value if and when, and this happens quite frequently, when a choke 'locks on' either standing up or after being taken to the ground.

I were told by any teacher that whatever style he is teaching will never permit my being taken to the ground, I would change teacher overnight.

Same as if a teacher were to tell me that escapes from chokes/headlocks etc., are built into a style that is primarily a block and strike style.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokehold

This link will provide a good understanding of chokes etc.

What Joey Pomfret and Jim Maloney brought up in discussions Saturday night, is that chokes and locks, especially by a very strong person, cause a 'panic factor' in the victim in the grip of the chemical cocktail that results in 'gross motor struggling' and quick 'burnout'...unless the victim has imprinted and practiced the specifically designed and proven counters against such attacks...something that BJJ, as an example, will imprint.
_________________

[Bill Glasheen]

On the first page of this thread (bottom of page), we find the following.

I am under the impression that blood chokes (rear naked choke) are somewhat variable in their ability to put someone under. Some seem to go down pretty readily with the right holder. Others (including yours truly) don't go down as quickly or readily because of neck anatomy.

The mechanism by which a blood choke works is mostly understood. It's a brain blood flow thing. But there are other factors involved, including the inadvertant stimulation of the carotid sinus, the level of panic of the head lock recipient, etc.

My point? If I am armed and the head lock comes on, that's two arms I don't have to worry about, other than what they are doing while preoccupied with my head/neck. {snip} I am thinking that the more calm one is while executing, the more likely one can get that firearm out and a round off. And you know what that translates to? Scenario training.

And then directly above, we have the following.

What Joey Pomfret and Jim Maloney brought up in discussions Saturday night, is that chokes and locks, especially by a very strong person, cause a 'panic factor' in the victim in the grip of the chemical cocktail that results in 'gross motor struggling' and quick 'burnout'...unless the victim has imprinted and practiced the specifically designed and proven counters against such attacks...something that BJJ, as an example, will imprint.

Sometimes we're on the same page, and don't even realize it!

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Sooner or later we all see it the way it is

[RA Miller]

BTW...I would love to see some input from Rory on this. If you are reading this, Rory, could you give us your impressions?

I've been summoned, which means I had to read the whole damn thread. So, first and foremost, sometimes I think Vann and Bill like to argue and just assume that they are on opposite sides when they aren't... or take opposite sides out of habit, but the actual supporting arguments agree.

The actual meat of the discussion? So much has welled up I'm not sure what it is any more.

If I could throw in one piece of advice it would be to play with actual bodies while simultaneously separating your feelings from what is actually happening.

1) Play with bodies. Hit people. Hit people in training who are trying to hit or control you (you will have to use something like the HighGear suits). It is a critical skill. Move. Practice your zanshen turns or whatever with someone trying to hold you. Take the movements you practice in air and attach an unfriendly body to them. A lot of stuff is there, but even if you see it you can't apply it until you feel it. Honest to God, people, sometimes I think I could teach karate better than a real, ranked karate instructor just because most have memorized the moves and I have to understand the movement. Qualitative difference.

2) Part two of the advice- until you play with bodies (and even most people who do) there is all kinds of mental stuff that is simply not real. Someone (MikeK? 5D?) pointed out early in the thread that headlocks aren't a big deal. They aren't. Just like getting your leg caught in a kick means exactly zip to your ability to fight. The fastest I've ever been put out with a choke was nine seconds (though I've heard 5-7 quoted a lot). Nine seconds is a lot of time. If you don't panic, you can do stuff. But you need to know it, know the stages. When I hear the rushing in my ears, I have some time. When my vision goes tunnel is when I have about 5-10 seconds. When I hear the angels singing I'm about to go out. You need to know stuff like this AND USE IT. There are good escapes from a solid RNC, the primarily mental ones are easy and won't work against someone who is dedicated. The ugly ones are ugly.

I'm not qualified and don't pretend to be qualified to say what is or isn't in Uechi. But if Vann's students are getting it and Bill's students are getting it and George set up special instruction to make sure that all of the students are getting it, it's in there now.

Rory

[Glenn]

1. Karate is a striking art, such as Uechi_ mainly kick and punches, blocks and stances, despite the implications of a grapple skillset component to it that many take for granted.

2. Jujitsu is a grappling art (like wrestling) with joint locks, chokes and throws .

3.Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is rooted in self-defense, and has been adopted by the U.S. Military as well as law enforcement agencies around the country.

Founded on efficient movements and refined throughout the decades by the Gracie family and their students, this combat-tested method is intended to teach practical self-defense through submission grappling and the striking arts.

This would seem to imply that BJJ is a combination of jujitsu and karate, and that BJJ is the only one that has been adopted by the U.S. military and law enforcement. Rich could comment better, but for example the histories of the MCMAP program that I have seen state that it borrows grappling from BJJ, throws from Judo, and striking/kicking from Karate. They did not see BJJ as being a combination of the best of jujitsu and karate, nor even so much as combat tested since BJJ is usually referred to as a mat sport in what I have seen on MCMAP.

The bottom line of course is that the developers of MCMAP sought out what they saw as the best (in particular, most efficient) of what was being taught in the various martial arts and combined these to meet their needs. I will take that a step further and guess that they actually sought out individuals who were experts at certain techniques.

Regardless of whether grappling/takedowns were originally intended to be in karate kata when created (and I believe they were), if the kata is not being taught/trained that way then the kata are not going to meet that need and you need to look elsewhere for training in these techniques. But I personally would look at the teacher's abilities rather than the stereotypes of the style, and if the teacher is proficient at grappling I wouldn't care whether he was BJJ, Uechi Ryu, Tai Chi, stage-fu, or whatever. And likewise if a karate instructor is able to apply grappling/takedowns from kata, I would not turn away just because he/she is not teaching BJJ or Judo. In my opinion, it's the individual not the style that matters most in these decisions.

Then again...remember the end of Karate Kid III when, after repeated practice of a (Goju Ryu) kata, Daniel instinctively executes a move from the kata as a successful throw, apparently without having practiced the throw on anyone beforehand, and follows it up with the winning point? Clearly we do not need to specifically train it, all will come from the kata when needed without our help.