A horse is a horse, of course, of course...

[Bill Glasheen]

OK, so I'm going to give this another try.

I have two different types of "horse stances" that I use in Uechi kata. Most I believe don't try to make a distinction; I most definitely do. I differentiate the stances for the most part by two key features, which are intimately connected.

• The body at the hips is either bladed (1) or frontal (2).
• The back knee is either back (1) or more forwards (2).

For simplicity's sake, I just call them bladed vs. frontal horse stances. But I keep wondering if there are Japanese names that distinguish the two.

The closest I've come is kiba dachi (1) vs. hangetsu dachi (2). However... If you Google kiba dachi, you get the kind where the shoulders are in line with the two knees rather than being turned more towards one direction.



Turn the shoulders to the left or the right, and you have a left or right bladed Uechi horse stance (using my terminology).

If you Google hangetsu dachi, you get something that is decidedly knock-kneed.



This is close... I prefer having the knee out a bit more.

This frontal stance of course is in contrast to zenkutsu dachi - the classic Shorin style front stance.



The difference between zenkutsu dachi vs. hangetsu dachi is...

• Near-locked rear leg vs. bent rear leg.
• Some lumbar lordosis vs. a pelvic tilt (thus minimizing lordosis as in Sanchin).

If you decide to get rid of the lumbar lordosis, you have the "Uechi leaning stance" (Seisan kata front elbow) as some call it.



I'm not trying to get into a discussion about which stance is better. I use them all. In fact... Recently in a classic sequence of Uechi Sanseiryu, I'm shifting from bladed horse (for double roundhouse boshiken) to front stance (to drive gedan barai) to bladed horse (to do shoken scooop) to frontal horse (to do toss after scoop). The key here is getting the core to drive the arm techniques. The more I do that and relax the arms, the more I feel "natural" and athletic in my kata movement. The blade/frontal shift with the shoken scoop is also highly functional in that blading the torso helps if you goof in catching a kick.

There is precedent in martial arts for stance shifting like this. The Yang style tai chi form I learned (from Robert Smith) has these kids of smoothly-shifting deep stances. And this form is very much about teaching the practitioner how to generate energy from the large core muscles. You can call it chi if you want; I call it good athletic movement. A batter who shifts his deep stance as he swings the bat doesn't think a lot about it. He just does it. The pelvis turns a full 90 degrees. That's extreme, but then you're swinging a big piece of lumber.

Barry Bonds swings a bat.

I first got into doing this after noting another Uechika doing this shift (George Schreiffer from Florida.) The "aha" I got from seeing him do that helped me resolve the extremes of the two horse stances I've seen people do in Uechi, like Shinjo Seiyu's deep bladed horse stance



vs. George's more frontal horse. Basically you can do both, mix and match them, and actually use the transitions to generate energy.

Or so I think...

Comments on naming conventions, tendency to shift low stances (or not) in Uechi kata, etc. are appreciated. I'm comfortable with what I do, but not comfortable with what to call it all. And I'm trying to get a feeler for what others are or are not doing.

- Bill

[MikeK]

A few stances from Shotokan that may be close to what you're talking about Bill. The names sometimes differ between Shoto-styles.

In Sochin dachi (sometimes called a fudo dachi but they are different), you are positioning your feet similar to a side stance ( kiba dachi)done at 45 degrees, however you turn your hips to face front. The feet are at the same distance as if you were doing a front stance.

Picture of Sochin dachi

Shotokan Sochin dachi


Shotokan Fudo dachi. Sometimes this stance is longer but the back leg is always bent rather than locked as in the zenkutsu dachi.

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike

The description of the Sochin dachi is like the "frontal horse stance" I talked about. The emphasis of your quoted description is my own.

In Sochin dachi (sometimes called a fudo dachi but they are different), you are positioning your feet similar to a side stance ( kiba dachi)done at 45 degrees, however you turn your hips to face front. The feet are at the same distance as if you were doing a front stance.

However... The picture of the guy in the gi shows a pelvis that is angled to the right. Take a look at the hands on the pelvis. I'm convinced that his hand placement there isn't an accident.



The left side is clearly leading, and the right side clearly lagging. That in my book is a "bladed" stance.

The picture you show of the Fudo dachi (with the fighter) shows a bladed body like the bladed horse stance I'm talking about. However... the fellow with the gi is more frontal with his stance. Go figure...

I agree about Zenkutsu dachi and the back leg lock.

Anyhow... We're at least conversant with the variations.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

OK, Mike. Here's something you might be familiar with.

This fellow transitions freely in-between a "bladed" and a "frontal" horse stance, just like what I'm talking about. The frontal he does more when extending a leg off the rear foot. The bladed he does more when doing techniques off the front foot. Watch the front/rear arm techniques, and watch the orientation of the hips.

Tsuchiya Kata Demonstration: Sochin

The fluid, elastic hip is what I'm talking about. The core muscles are driving the arm movements, and providing extra reach (for either front or rear arm) as needed. Is this all the same stance, or transitioning from one stance to the next? It's what I see a very few Uechi people do, and I am teaching.

There is another vertical dimension I add in the Sanseiryu shoken scooping block/toss techniques (shoken sukuiage uke). That makes it even more fun and challenging.

- Bill

[MikeK]

I agree Bill, the fellow in the picture is very bladed and doesn't really show being 45 degrees to the opponent, I had hoped to find a better static example. The main thing was I wanted to let you know about the two other stances.

The shifting of the stance is a must if you'll be using your hips to drive technique otherwise you start working against your own body. Been there, done that, hurt my back.

The core muscles are driving the arm movements, and providing extra reach (for either front or rear arm) as needed.

Exactly, but I'll just add for the sake of completeness that using the core/hips will provide extra reach without sacrificing balance. Something that I'm working on myself and with some of my juniors is not to reach with the arms or lean from the shoulders but to move from their core.
One of the ways I practice using my core to drive arm techniques is to practice the back fist and elbows, but instead of moving the arms I keep them in the same orientation to my body and drive the techniques from the hips.

Is this all the same stance, or transitioning from one stance to the next?

Stances themselves are transitional.

[Van Canna]

The kata sequence is typically practiced with consistent strong leg focus and strong stance connection to the floor without fluctuation.

Why? Because it's harder to do that way and it makes you aware of power leaks via soft lats and shoulders.

Application, appropriately, varies with every situation.

The fact that bunkai means "an application" not "the application" is basic to understanding the distinction between kata practice and practical application.

There is a "right way" to practice the kata, as in, the way your specific teacher directs you and his dojo members to practice.

The application, as in "what works for me" comes quickly out of trial and error against full power attacks and seldom mirrors the kata.

[Bill Glasheen]

Interesting quote, Van. Care to divulge where you got that from?

The application, as in "what works for me" comes quickly out of trial and error against full power attacks and seldom mirrors the kata.

I agree to the extent that some of my best applications are pieces and parts of kata elements and martial principles put together to adapt to specific situations.

A big maybe on the "against full power attacks" thing. There's always preempting the attack...

I'll also challenge the idea of "the right" way to practice kata being the way your teacher directs you to. I frankly don't sell that idea to my own students. However I will challenge them if they do something in a fashion different from the way I teach it. If what they do makes sense and falls in line with the principles of the style, then I let it go.

Yes, there are "vanilla" ways of doing techniques, and junior ways of executing what we do. But I'm a big believer in people layering on levels of understanding to a simple kata structure. In fact that was my understanding of the "circular" nature of this style. If you come up with an idea, see if you can reduce it to a lowest common denominator element in Sanchin. Then when you master it there, try infusing it up the levels of the kata. It's a never-ending process of personal experimentation.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Continuing...

What I'm looking for is a language to communicate what I do in my kata and relate to my students. It gets to the specific details of applying core movement either to generate/enhance power and/or to get off the line of force. Where I get stuck is the language to describe what I am teaching. And there's nothing fuzzy about it. I can show it, but I don't know what to call it.

I generally am not of the opinion that I am the first to come up with an idea, so I'm doing my literature search (so to speak) to prevent a "Tower of Babel" in my martial teachings. But if there isn't a good language, well so be it. I'll make up my own (in English), which is what I've already started doing.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Good points Bill. And as I have always written and argued:
they are only opinions...everybody's got one...and they all think theirs is the most valid one.

Nothing wrong with that...

And our opinion and a nickel will probably buy one of Tony's Cappuccinos.

[Bill Glasheen]

And our opinion and a nickel will probably buy one of Tony's Cappuccinos.

That's a pretty good deal, Van!

- Bill

[MikeK]

Where I get stuck is the language to describe what I am teaching. And there's nothing fuzzy about it. I can show it, but I don't know what to call it.

Give it a shot right here Bill. Start writing your ideas and try to teach me what you're trying to get across.

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike

We were just talking about this on Saturday.

As I teach all this, I realize that there are extremes in the various permutations to the extent that you can create binary categories. Either do this or that. However in talking about this and teaching this in class, I realize that the transitions (the in-between positions) themselves are perfectly valid postures. It's sort of like the 4-dimensional Meyers-Briggs personality classification. For instance we say you're either introverted or extroverted. But in reality people fall on a spectrum, and it's perfectly valid to be somewhere in the middle of that spectrum. Most are in fact not on the extremes.

That being established... I can talk about the permutations.

**********************

1) Bladed vs. frontal - This is intimately connected with the direction of the rear knee. When bladed, the back knee tends to point out a bit. When frontal, the back knee is a bit more forward. The key here is the orientation of the pelvis, which can be seen either at the level of the pelvis or to some extent where the navel is pointing.

2) Heels in vs. heels out - This is a subtle detail talked about more in Sanchin-based systems, and stances are called differently depending on how these heels (or alternately the toes) are pointed. For instance sanchin dachi is heels out (toes in), and renoji dachi is the same stance but with heels in. In the natural stance categories, a heiko dachi is heel out, and hachiji dachi heels in. Turning the heels out creates torsion-spring tension in the hips.

For these deeper stances, I've seen the Goju people call a heel-out horse a kiba dachi, and a heel-in horse a shiko dachi.

3) Pelvic tuck vs. relaxed pelvis - This is a key detail in many (but not all) karate stances - particularly in Uechi Ryu. Alternately one could talk about a natural lower back curve (lumbar lordosis) vs. a minimized curve or lordosis.

4) Straight vs. bent rear leg - Virtually all the stances in the "horse stance" family have bent rear leg. Virtually all the "front" stances (e.g. zenkutsu dachi) have locked or near-locked rear legs.

5) Waist twist. - To some extent, we can talk about the degree of torsion in the waist. Sometimes we want to be bladed at the hips but frontal at the shoulders. That translates to torsion in the waist. Having the rear arm available for use as for instance a wauke would require some twisting at the waist so that the rear shoulder is aligned (more or less) with the front.

******************************

So if we look at Shinjo Seiryu above... He is in a bladed, heels in (toes out), pelvic tuck, bent rear leg, no-waist-twist right horse stance. Facing right means that the twist is almost completely in his neck.

It's worth mentioning that this is a "posed" stance to show off his muscles. It's a publicity shot. However this snapshot posture would be perfectly appropriate if we were thinking of this posture as catching a kick. The body is bladed - just in case. The front arm is in a "coat hook" posture to hold the leg. The rear hand is in a shoken as a metaphor for grabbing on to something. (You MIGHT think hitting kyusho point on bottom of foot. I don't get that cute.)

This snapshot however is just a snapshot. The "what next" in my opinion should be driven by the legs/hips and not done only with the arms. And that IMO is where the good stuff is. I like to think of making the pelvis go frontal as the caffeine in that coffee.

If Shinjo Seiryu wanted to do a left circle block (off rear leg) before a right elbow (as in Seisan), he'd either have to go frontal with the hips or twist at the waist. Note in the example below, that extending the rear arm meant going frontal with the pelvis.

Tsuchiya Kata Demonstration: Sochin

I like that video because the practitioner goes frontal with pelvis for all rear-leg arm techniques (the straight-armed wauke, the reverse punch, the rear lateral elbow, and the rear chudan uke).

The "frontal horse" I talk about is frontal, pelvic tuck, bent rear knee with no waist twist. I tend to do heels out to create stiffness, but that's not necessary.

The picture of Kanei Uechi above is done in a very unusual stance. People sometimes call this a "leaning front stance", but I don't like that description. I prefer to say front stance (frontal, locked rear leg) with pelvic tuck (implying no lumbar lordosis). Accomplishing that necessarily means that your spine will be in line with the direction of the locked rear leg. In other words, keeping the pelvic tuck and locking the rear will make your spine bend forwards.

Normally a zenkutsu dachi (front stance) with no lean implies there is lumbar lordosis, or an absence of pelvic tuck. That's the only way you can lock the rear leg and still have your head and shoulders point straight up. The pelvis is allowed to go back, which creates the "natural" curve in the lumbar region.

That's a start anyhow, Mike.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Thanks Bill. I've read the post and I'll think about what you wrote and see if I got all your points.

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike

I've done a little more research on this.

It appears that there's disagreement over whether Sochin dachi and Fudo dachi are the same stance. Some use the names interchangeably. One source says that the weight is more forward on Sochin dachi. In any case, the "Sochin" name pops up as a name for a stance that also is the name for a kata that has the two permutations of a horse-like stance I'm talking about.

What I find particularly useful and interesting is this video. Check it out.

Basics - Kosa-dachi Sochin-dachi Stances Shotokan Traditional Karate

What you'll see is a suggestion that the two stances I'm talking about (bladed and frontal) may be two different permutations of the same stance in the strict stance classification.

By the way, I like how the Shotokan people put their hands on their hips when demonstrating stances. It makes the pelvic orientation (and degree of blading) much more clear.

- Bill

[MikeK]

But wait, there's more! Tom Mozilla (a Oshima student) refers to a Sochin stance that appears in several Shotokan kata, in this case Heian Nidan (movements 16,19). In this version the front foot is forward but the back foots heal is cocked sort of outwards depending how deep the scoop block is. So we have one more Sochin stance for the road.



I've been looking at the bladed vs. frontal stances in regards to function and once you start getting into some applications you really can't have one without the other. Of course you have bladed strikes that give a more reach and you also can blade to evade, but you also blade to change orientation to your opponent or to allow yourself to have more expansive movement.

http://www.ehow.com/video_4945120_tai-c ... -back.html

App I'm thinking of is at the end of the video.
http://www.ehow.com/video_4945092_tai-c ... -back.html


Is this fellow facing his opponent or bladed to him?


How about this guy?