Fake or Real Demo?

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:46 pm

All the shotokan that I have seen is heavily stylised and I can't see it working against somebody who doesn't even acknowledge that mindset.
Shirai used to be in the JKA and as far as I am aware that was where all Shotokan came from.....in my experience most Shotokan is like this, However one of my jiu jitsu instructors was a 5th dan in Shotokan.he weighed about 70lbs in a wet dufflecoat.and I'd prefer to fight a wildcat than fight him

...I suppose at the end of the day it really all comes down to individuals

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:25 pm

Ray, it's well known that you like to argue. So argue away.

Without exception, nobody is endorsing the demo. However most of us aren't being a tool about it either - as this person was who chose to draw this fellow out on the carpet. Calling out an entire style takes the absurdity to another level. Shotokan practitioners tend to be the toughest of the TMA lot. Advanced or overly simplistic, most tend to be butt kickers when it comes time to do freeform work. But then again, I don't need to know the style to appreciate that all schools will get a semi-random sample of students, and their abilities will fall across a predictable statistical spectrum.

It's apparent from your response that you aren't a martial arts teacher. If you were, then you would know the phenomenon I am talking about. "By what?" indicates to me that you don't teach people.

I'm pretty low key when I teach. I don't tolerate fooling around in a class, but I am otherwise easy going on the hierarchy stuff. Nevertheless, I find that it's the norm rather than the exception for students not to get close enough to do damage when doing partner exercises. The higher the rank they are working with, the more prodding it takes to get them to do what they are supposed to do. It takes lots of encouragement. In my case, I just drop my hands and make it obvious that we're wasting our time until they get with the program. It usually does the trick. (I witnessed Vicki do this with a young girl just last night.)

Some get deluded by it all. Mr. Mooney observed the phenomenon and thought it was something other than what it was. He thought he had some kind of advanced chi going on, and was selling some "no touch" stuff that we put to the test (and to rest) at a camp. When I first met him, it made sense. His biceps were as big as most people's thighs. He was an intimidating-looking character.

It's easy to play armchair critic. It's quite something else to put yourself out there either as an instructor or as a person willing to do demos in public that somebody will film and dissect on YouTube. Knock yourself out, Ray. We'd love to see the way it's supposed to be. Geography is no longer a barrier when everyone has a camera.

- Bill

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:46 pm

Quote
"Ray, it's well known that you like to argue. So argue away. "

BILL
do you ever read what I write

Quote
"
However one of my jiu jitsu instructors was a 5th dan in Shotokan.he weighed about 70lbs in a wet dufflecoat.and I'd prefer to fight a wildcat than fight him ...I suppose at the end of the day it really all comes down to individuals "
ME

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:50 pm

We posted almost simultaneously, Ray. I didn't see your post before I started composing mine.

You DO like to argue!

Bill

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:56 pm

Yeah I do.but what kind of a forum would it be without that

kyushoguy · Post by **kyushoguy** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:19 am

Back to the demo it is an example of, childrens no contact competition krate, which is what the jka is.

The okinwanas were forced by the japanese to show them karate.

So the okinawans wisely only showed them the watered down childrens karate that the elderly school teacher funakoshi taught 'shotokan'.

The middle class japanese he taught it to watered it down even more to make it into no contact competition karate.

This is the linear no contact styalised coreographed rubbish you see here.

All the Japs I have studied have never had a real fight in their life like enoeda nakayama etc so they are dry kland swimmers which unfortunately is what most karateka are.

Hence accepting this nonesense and getting angry when its challenged.

Try to get a street fighter or nhb competior to march up and down punching the air lol

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:15 pm

Don't know where you're getting your history from Kyushoguy but it's not very accurate. Kenwa Mabuni and Motobu Chōki were both teaching karate on Japan before Funakoshi. The Okinawans willingly wanted to teach and spread their art in Japan. And not all Shotokan is the JKA brand.

Also it's nonsense to think the Japanese never fought, either with combative arts or sport arts. Do all teachers fight? No. But that doesn't mean that none of them has any experience.

Try to get a street fighter or nhb competior to march up and down punching the air

How about a couple of special ops guys with actual kills, do they count as legit fighters?

BTW, Here are some of those JKA guys doing their non-contact karate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkGP0AM14F0

Covering ground with the lunge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kpnznBe ... re=related

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:01 pm

I can see both sides of this one.. On the one hand I had issues with the content and typically the level of understanding of the content in many schools; but by the same token the 'limited material' can be used to devastating effect as seen in those clips..

Very good clips Mike.. I sure wish the 'Japanese karate guy' that fought in one of the first UFCs would have fought more like those guys...... I was very disappointed, being at that time a karate guy..... These guys rock...

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:28 pm

Karate has definitely shot itself in the foot over the years, and various Shotokan branches have expended their fair share of bullets into their toes.

A few Oshima vids.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nooBlZ9bT7k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9IsfkddAME

kyushoguy · Post by **kyushoguy** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:22 am

lol and you think that linear style of pulled punching would win in a ufc contest

I hope none of you ever get in a real fight cos youll lose

Im talking about that clip and jka shotokan in particular

I was in that style for many years many years ago

In JKA childrens no contact competition karate you get warnings or disqualified for too much contact, so how can it be full contact.

No your history is incorrect one of my students is an okinawa karateka (Gojo Ryu)

That is where I get my history from where do you get yours, Wikapedia?

Yes I've trainded under/with bodyguards, bouncers, marines, etc in my 30+ years training.

You need to see reality otherwise your just playing

Kata without a partner is dancing.

Air punching is for children and ruins your joints

And the second clip you showed me wasnt martial arts it was competiton?

get real!!!

Josann · Post by **Josann** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:35 am

Does anybody have any thoughts on Lyoto Machida, the new UFC lightheavyweight champion who's standup style is shotokan? He's undefeated in the UFC and has been training since he was 5 years old. Other standup fighters find him very hard to figure out. Of course his blackbelt i BJJ doesn't hurt either, but he is clear that his standup game is shotokan.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:32 pm

There's actually a thorough review of him on Wikipedia. Some of your questions and assertions are addressed. This fellow is a true mixed martial artist in the literal sense of the word, although the shotokan style comes in front and center.

Machida was born in the city of Salvador as the third son of the highly ranked head of the Brazilian branch of the Japan Karate Association,[7] Shotokan karate master Yoshizo Machida.[8] Growing up in Belém, Machida began training in karate at the age of three, and earned his black belt at the age of thirteen.[9] He also began training in sumo at twelve and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu at fifteen. He won a number of amateur karate tournaments, including the 2001 Pan American Karate tournament.[10]

He was the runner-up in the 2000 Brazilian Sumo Championships in the 115 kg division. As an adult, he became Brazilian Champion twice, and placed second in the South American Championship. He defeated American black belt Jiu-Jitsu fighter Rafael Lovato Jr. at L.A. Sub X. In addition to his sumo and karate achievements, he has a college degree in Physical Education.

****

Fighting style

Machida uses a unique style that combines elements from his diverse training background.[13] Often described as "elusive," Machida relies on cautious and precise counter-striking that frustrates his opponents into making mistakes.[23][24][25] Machida has earned considerable respect from MMA fans, fighters, and commentators for his effectiveness and winning ways.[26][27][28] At the same time, his cerebral and conservative style is sometimes deemed boring and unsatisfying to watch.[24][26][29][30] Machida has drawn fire from fans,[31][32] and criticism from MMA commentators[33][34] for his limited aggression and many decision victories. In response to these criticisms, Machida said, "If you don't like it, sorry. I always try to win."[34] He also stated that he believes fans are coming to appreciate the efficiency of his style just like they came to appreciate Royce Gracie's grappling.[30]

Machida defied expectations at UFC 94,[32][35] where he earned a "Knockout of the Night" honor for his first-round stoppage of then undefeated Thiago Silva. Commentators hailed the knockout as a step in the right direction toward building interest in him as a potential champion.

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:13 am

kyushoguy wrote:lol and you think that linear style of pulled punching would win in a ufc contest

Not sure if anyone was trying to win a UFC contest, but they were just doing a typical karate demo and it's pretty much the norm. For example, not too long ago I was watching a video by a fellow that did Kyusho and all of the attacks were telegraphed, stiff linear punches where the uke stopped and stood there after their attack. The attacks were not dynamic or alive at all. Now this fellow and at least one of his uke looked like they could take care of themselves though if you looked at just the demos you wouldn't know it. It's just the way a lot of karateka do demos. I don't, but others do.

kyushoguy wrote:No your history is incorrect one of my students is an okinawa karateka (Gojo Ryu)

That is where I get my history from where do you get yours, Wikapedia?

Well then he must know what he's talking about. Seriously, he should really try reading some of the works by Patrick McCarthy, Mark Bishop and especially Harry Cook.

kyushoguy wrote:Yes I've trainded under/with bodyguards, bouncers, marines, etc in my 30+ years training.

You need to see reality otherwise your just playing

Note to self: Gotta go get some of that reality stuff and maybe find some instructors with a similar background.

kyushoguy wrote:Kata without a partner is dancing.

Air punching is for children and ruins your joints

Nothing wrong with dancing, it's a great way to teach movement, balance, coordination, relaxation and not to mention it's great exercise. The fellow I've been training under for the last five or so years does a helluva Texas Two Step. He even showed how the grape vine step could be used for self defense.

Also, you're not really punching air but working on movement. If you're hurting your joints "punching air" then you're doing it wrong.

kyushoguy wrote:And the second clip you showed me wasnt martial arts it was competiton?

And Mixed Martial Arts isn't competition?

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:46 am

These demos/instructionals are pretty well done, though they are still demos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-h047FemBU

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:34 am

Josann wrote:Does anybody have any thoughts on Lyoto Machida, the new UFC lightheavyweight champion who's standup style is shotokan? He's undefeated in the UFC and has been training since he was 5 years old. Other standup fighters find him very hard to figure out. Of course his blackbelt i BJJ doesn't hurt either, but he is clear that his standup game is shotokan.

I've been to a bunch of matches and it seems that the guys who have not studied or watched TKD or karate aren't used to seeing some of the techniques. A guy I know was a top ranked feather weight kick boxer and he told me how we had a lot of trouble with a TKD guy who threw kicks from every angle and never in a Muay Thai fashion. Finally his coach yelled at him to take the guy out with his hands.

Lot's of reverse punches (which are quite linear) and a spinning back kick or two.
Stephan Bonnar vs Lyoto Machida

Against Rich Franklin
A reverse punch with a front kick finisher. Both linear techniques.