A horse is a horse, of course, of course...

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike

I've been playing with this whole Fudo/Sochin dachi blading vs. non-blading phenomenon, and believe I came up with a pretty simple way to work on it. Actually it was inspired by Sochin kata, which executes the kind of hip movement from these "rooted stances."



In Uechi kata, lateral elbow strikes are always off the front leg. In Sochin kata, they are always done off the rear leg. There is no way to do the Sochin kata rear elbow without bringing the hips completely frontal. Meanwhile, blading just a bit makes a front lateral elbow a bit easier.

So...

What I have been drilling my students on now is a play on the Kanshiwa kata wauke and elbow, only I have them alternate sides. From the right rooted stance, they do left circle and right elbow. Then they do right circle and left elbow. (Later I have them switch stances.) I tell them to try keeping the circle on the plane forward (waxing the mirror in front of them), but let a slight canter of the hips one way or the other drive the elbow. By doing this simple sequence and nothing more, the student can concentrate on keeping the knees out (in the rooted stance) while cantering the hips back and forth. The torso alternately blades (front elbow) or goes frontal (rear elbow) with the techniques. And it takes very little movement to get a desirable effect. I actually had to stop after 4 or 5 reps on each side as my forearms were getting bright red from the contact of forearm on the other palm.

I am tempted to pick up Sochin kata from the video I posted in this thread. (Thanks, Van!!) Nice kata! It works a lot on one of the very hip movements that I'm talking about. And it keeps it pretty simple. There are more degrees of freedom in Sanseiryu, but the Sochin kata approach at least gets you started.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Sounds like good stuff Bill. Once of these days I'll have to stop by to say hi and see what you all are doing.

BTW, the elbow into the palm has an actual use and can also be done off of the front leg as shown below.



I've shown this one before.

[Van Canna]

Bill

Indeed, Van. Clashing seems to me to be the best way to shut the nonsense down. It was always my comfort zone with these types of fighters.

Indeed. We would shut down these TKD and ‘Kung Fu’ Shaolin competitors routinely in open tournaments, by clashing/catching them ‘mid flight’ and either stopping them with well placed kicks _ direct or circular “hand – grabbing” techniques and spinning them down into the ground.

Both TKD the kung fu _people would cry foul as they couldn’t cope with the Uechi ‘grabs’ and the ‘excessive contact’ _

We were discussing this video with Maloney tonight, and he reminded us of the Kung Fu group that showed up at one of his tournaments of the seventies in Halifax…with their sensei coming to us and giving us ‘warnings’ before the fights started_ of his students’ extreme power and speed and dangerousness in their flashing fingers techniques.

The group ‘retired’ from the tourney after the first elimination bouts, complaining of our ‘excessive’ contact and take downs that left them unable and fearful to continue.

Not that the style or even that the fighters were not good. We blamed that idiot of a sensei who had brainwashed them into believe they could take on seasoned fighters by waving finger techniques and foolish sequences.

They ran into spinning back fists, shutos, and leg chopping shin kicks and slammer take downs with circular intercepting moves as we clashed and spun them down.

The following year, another fledgling Kung Fu group suffered the same fate.

It was not the system or even the fighters…it was their obvious inexperience and arrogance that sealed their doom.

[MikeK]

Bill,
Here's a video of Tsutomu Ohshima on suwari-waza for Shotokan Karate. It's a drill that really shows and trains moving from the hips, which is really what moving in and out of a bladed orientation is about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1W7-vD_ ... re=related

It should look familiar to you with your Aikido background.

[Van Canna]

Some excerpts from Dave Elkins article that will serve to illustrate the fighting concepts Bill and I are trying to get across, and concepts we have put to successful use in years of tournament fighting with great results against all comers.

Although other southern Chinese boxing styles and Uechi-Ryu may differ with regard to the methods with which power is generated (particularly at the beginning and intermediate levels of expertise) there are many surprising similarities in the ways they express energy in combative application.

The sophistication and elegance of the similarities may be "discovered" at dan level or possibly earlier if one is fortunate enough to have an enlightened instructor and be sufficiently mature to receive what is presented. Unfortunately, such teachings may never be comprehended.

In Wing Chun gung-fu the attack and defense pyramids used in combat are said to possess the quality of multidirectionality, that is, motion that travels in at least two but usually three directions at once.

This quality when combined with juen ging (whirlpool energy) - the application of circular energy to linear motions) results in movement of technique that resembles a drill bit, e.g., encountering an obstacle results in penetration or deflection but not cessation of movement [xxxi].

This is the awesome power of the spiral. So too, the shuto, uraken, and shoken can be thought of as successive machine gun-like attacks which neither withdraw to chamber nor cease their relentless penetration when confronted with obstacles.

Sanchin stepping (C or semicircular movement) is performed to advance to the next … movement, the practitioner is effectively performing another kick, a leg sweep, clearing an obstruction (such as the opponent's foot), or otherwise favorably changing the facing relationship with the opponent.

Some Uechi Sensei teach the coordination of deflect/grab/and kick by emphasizing the pulling in and immediate snapping out of the grabbing hand. This application can be seen in vintage films of Uechi Kanei Sensei performing the basic exercises and kata of the style [xxvii].

Performing the sequence in this manner puts shock power into the grab and pull, power which can potentially produce a whiplash type of effect and knockout an opponent.

This expression of grabbing hand additionally has the advantage of conditioning the practitioner to strike from a grab. Even if the grab is only partially successful, the opponent still gets hit.

Ashi sabaki (foot movement) would support the hands should tai sabaki (body movement - redirection) be necessary to change the centerline relationship between you and your opponent.

We learn from shomen geri that pulling an opponent in to a strike from the same side as a grab is acceptable. You can grab/pull in and kick, knee, or sweep; grab/pull in and hit (as described above); or hook with a leg/pull in and hit, elbow, or head butt.


What we do know with certainty, however, is that Uechi-Ryu Karate is largely the product of one man's intense and prolonged study of Southern Chinese gung-fu.


It is the author’s contention that Uechi-Ryu's viability is enhanced by this ability to look back in time without self-deception or embellishment and rediscover its roots in authentic Chinese gung-fu.

In keeping with other Nan Chuan traditions, higher level Uechi Ryu does not distinguish movement into discrete categories of offensive and defensive application.

Movements of the kata simply represent paradigms of energy vectors that can be meaningfully applied in unlimited ways.

In the author's opinion, each and every element of kata should be explored in two person "slammer" drills. This descriptive term coined by noted Uechi-Ryu Sensei, Van Canna, requires no further explanation.

[Bill Glasheen]

It was not the system or even the fighters…it was their obvious inexperience and arrogance that sealed their doom.

Indeed!

Over the years, I have been blessed with a few "gems in the rough" who wandered into my dojo with obvious talent, but some "issues" that prevented them from realizing their potential. When I was a young instructor, I would attempt to reconstruct them from the ground up, not seeing the gem within the stone. But over time I realized that it just took a tweak here and a modification there to bring out a great fighter that sometimes was better than anything I might have produced de novo. Such encounters end up being rewarding experiences for both parties.

One such student was a Hung Gar/Choy Li Fut practitioner who ended up winning a weapons competition at a tournament I brought my class to. Great guy - now a practicing physician. Another ended up winning the women's kata competition at one of George's big tournaments. That surprised the heck out of me. I didn't realize how far we had come. She went to the tournament on a lark and blew them away. A few others became great tournament fighters either in the karate or the boxing ring.

You pegged it, Van. It's baggage that prevents such practitioners from reaching their potential. When egos can be tossed and folks can get out of their closed training closets, good things can happen.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Some excerpts from Dave Elkins article that will serve to illustrate the fighting concepts Bill and I are trying to get across, and concepts we have put to successful use in years of tournament fighting with great results against all comers.

Van

Thanks for that piece from David Elkins (with highlighting).

I was talking to Vinny at camp last year about a phenomenon. It seems that if you put reasonably smart people in different places and have them work on something (martial) long enough, they all start coming up with some of the same things. Too much communication can create copycat martial arts. But touching base on an occasional basis creates the potential for semi-independent confirmation. Furthermore it can reaffirm that you aren't going down a stray path.

We all have our ways we see and do things. Arriving at the same place from different (intellectual, experiential) approaches is pretty profound. Then seeing how that gets manifested from its different perspectives can be even more enlightening.

Vicki has been hounding me about "that book" she wants me to write. Methinks it's in the making. I believe I even have a title.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

You pegged it, Van. It's baggage that prevents such practitioners from reaching their potential. When egos can be tossed and folks can get out of their closed training closets, good things can happen.

Yes, and this of course applies to any of us…the whole bunch of us...as we seek to expand our knowledge on a daily basis from a multitude of inputs that makes some of us ‘seasoned’ _ now the definition of this word remains in the mind of the beholder…we know that…but the attitude and the results are all there staring you in the face.

“Seasoning” is something that is earned…and sometimes a good way for the ‘fools’ to become seasoned… is when their arrogance ***** them into a trap.

Last night, Maloney, Bridget and I went to visit Joey Pomfret’s dojo and were treated to an unbelievable workout from stand up fighting to grappling under scenarios of relentless powerful attacks by ‘in shape’ powerful people…great kick-boxers and BJJ players.

So Maloney was smiling when we discussed the fact that some people’s arrogance would program them to believe they could just come in and take on some of those fighters, trained by him and Joe lauzon…with some half ass theory.

And Maloney further reminded me of a another ‘challenge’ by a group of ‘deadly’ Shaolin fighters…in Northern Maine, inviting his boys to ‘get even’ tournament …up Northern Maine…full contact.

So Maloney’s boys show up and all the deadly techniques were reduced to those guys having to wipe blood from their faces…again…matches had to be stopped because of ‘excessive contact’ by Jim’s fighters.

Why would a ‘sensei’ a Shaolin ‘Master’ place their unseasoned students in the ‘lion’s mouth’ is for another thread.

As you point out…’gym Kata’ is not fighting…what I saw in the clip is ridiculous ‘rabbit on a pogo stick’ performance.

The ‘stalking…set up…the read’ etc. _ that is necessary to dominate a fight and conserve energy…were totally lacking…the ‘fight’ more like a demonstration of agility not fighting prowess.

[Van Canna]

And when we get into these discussions, it is normal for any of us to question or challenge each other’s ‘seasoning’ and what that word may mean.

Well, for the moment, let’s stay away from ‘real life seasoning’ something that I continuously cover on my forum…and talk about speed and power ‘seasoning’ in tournament play for some of us Uechi seniors, as I know this might be in some people’s minds as the arguments proceed.

I don’t usually blow my own horn as to how great I am/was etc., acting more of a facilitator of good information by respected people in the concepts smart people embrace on these forums.

But since my comments are on speed and power and ‘seasoned’ tactics in tournament play, as we see in the clip…for one I will say that once I won a tournament of champions match were ten top fighters, all winners of previous tournaments, were pitted against each other in a round robin fashion, Walter Mattson was part of that selection as well.

Then there were many tournaments with ridiculous rules that I didn’t even bother to enter because they were plainly boring.

But there were others where descending into the arena against great fighters was a matter of personal honor.

Here is something from Arthur Rabesa, one of our most formidable Uechi fighters, a real destroyer in the ring

One night a visiting kumite team from another part of the country [Texas] came to New England. [They decided to challenge the Mattson Academy]

We needed another fighter to round out our team and we asked Van….this was a matter of dojo pride. [This challenge took place at the John Hancock Hall…downtown Boston]

We matched him with someone ranked in the US top ten. [This fabulous fighter, was a student of the renowned Ed Daniels...the King Kong of Karate…and so rated by black belt magazine]

I am sure this visiting team of ‘good old boys’ never heard of us.

Van’s match began with his opponent feeling very confident I am sure.

Within ten seconds, Van was on him like white on rice.
You’d think he had said something nasty to Van.

It went on like this for the rest of the match. Van won the match quite easily and the only thing we heard his opponent say was “Who the hell is that guy?”

There was no ‘Gym Kata’ BS to show empty air ‘speed and power’ while dancing the ring straight up and down.

I knew who he was, I knew about his dangerous strength, power, speed and take down ability.

My only chance was to overwhelm him with ‘shut down’ moves faster than his brain signal to his limbs for the chosen attack.

No blocking BS…just enter, grab him, spin him and score with mainly punches and shutos at close range and keep on spinning him with our Uechi foot work even after scoring on him until the referee would charge in to separate us.

I knew enough not to allow him any ‘pissed off’ space at all --- so he could throw a counter even after my scoring point was called…something very common with top rated fighters.

[Dana Sheets]

What I have been drilling my students on now is a play on the Kanshiwa kata wauke and elbow, only I have them alternate sides. From the right rooted stance, they do left circle and right elbow. Then they do right circle and left elbow. (Later I have them switch stances.) I tell them to try keeping the circle on the plane forward (waxing the mirror in front of them), but let a slight canter of the hips one way or the other drive the elbow. By doing this simple sequence and nothing more, the student can concentrate on keeping the knees out (in the rooted stance) while cantering the hips back and forth. The torso alternately blades (front elbow) or goes frontal (rear elbow) with the techniques. And it takes very little movement to get a desirable effect. I actually had to stop after 4 or 5 reps on each side as my forearms were getting bright red from the contact of forearm on the other palm.

Methinks a bit of video with a heavy bag is in order because there's really 6 different elbow strikes under discussion here.

The forward, lateral, or forward/lateral elbow strike's mechanics off the forward or rear leg and necessary support system dynamics needs to be carefully compared, in my mind, to the question of why the bladed vs forward hips/shoulders variance is seen during the one knuckle scooping/thrusting movement. Particularly because there are three main variations on that one:
* people who do the entire scoop/thrust from the hips to the side-type stance
* people who do the entire scoop/thrust from the hips to the front-type stance
*people who do the scoop with the hips to the side and the thrust with the hips to the front.

What matters, of course, is the rationale of each approach and its likely efficacy in a tight spot.

[Bill Glasheen]

Damn you are good, Dana!

I'm temporarily without the use of video equipment. My old camera died. And between tight finances (the economy) and the transition to HDTV, I want to wait before taking the next plunge. Long story on that one...

Let me see if I can get someone to video me in the near future.

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

I bought a flip video camera on amazon.com for $50 a few weeks ago. Love the thing. It comes with a basic video editing software installed that installs itself onto your desktop. It's perfect for non-archival/for fun videos. I'll see if I can't do a few clips when I train in the morning.

FYI - the camera was on sale at the time. The same model is back up to $95.
http://www.amazon.com/Flip-Video-Ultra- ... 218&sr=8-1

[Bill Glasheen]

Methinks a bit of video with a heavy bag is in order because there's really 6 different elbow strikes under discussion here.

Just so we understand... This is the elbow strike I was working on in the exercise I described above.

The forward, lateral, or forward/lateral elbow strike's mechanics off the forward or rear leg and necessary support system dynamics needs to be carefully compared, in my mind, to the question of why the bladed vs forward hips/shoulders variance is seen during the one knuckle scooping/thrusting movement. Particularly because there are three main variations on that one:
* people who do the entire scoop/thrust from the hips to the side-type stance
* people who do the entire scoop/thrust from the hips to the front-type stance
*people who do the scoop with the hips to the side and the thrust with the hips to the front.

In the case of the shoken sukuiage uke, I (now) choose to do the third one. Several reasons I do so are the following.

• If you goof, actively blading while scooping keeps you from taking a hit. You can blade to an extreme if you REALLY goof. Been there, done that in Dan Kumite. It's a great place to experiment with shoken sukuiage uke - particularly if you have an "honest" partner.
• When you go from blade to frontal, you get some core muscle "oomph" into the move. If you're holding a leg and want to dump the person, this really is the only honest way to do it. I use both compression and rotation movement in my throw.

There are other fine uses of shoken sukuiage uke such as for an ankle lock (standing or on your back), neck crank, elbow hyperextension, etc. Getting more core muscle involvement can turn an annoying technique into a particularly nasty one.

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

The video below shows a basic elbow strike where the elbow translates the forward momentum of the body into the bag. Nothing fancy about this one. I use a basic sanchin step and the elbow connects with the bag just before the front foot hits the ground.
http://www.vimeo.com/5759809

If other folks can post of videos of some of the variations that'd be swell.

My "stance" for this strike was simply the elongated sanchin stance you get from a natural entry. I wasn't consciously keeping my hips 100% square to the front or 100% bladed. FWIW I find this "hybrid" position useful most of the time as, for me, it comes out of the basic sanchin stance and it keeps the principle of having some strength in every direction rather than overly committing to a single posture for a single type of strength/power.

[Bill Glasheen]

Jousting elbow is one of my favorite applications of the "lateral" elbow. As you astutely pointed out above, this involves one of several possible force vectors for that technique. This is the way I envision entering and taking out someone with a weapon; when you are in, your technique is executed.

I more-or-less do my advanced kata with this kind of timing. I reserve the one-two timing (with a very different force vector) for Kanshiwa, Kanshu, and Seisan.

This of course isn't an application that needs any pivoting in-between frontal and lateral rooted stances.

- Bill