Dilemma

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 2:07 pm

From another forum:

If you are confronted by a mugger with a knife, and you, Mr. Quick Draw, produce your firearm, do you:

A: Blast the mugger and tell the police you feared for your life. (More force than necessary)?

B: Order him to get the f___ out of here. (Avoiding the legal system)?

C: Order him to drop the weapon and get on the ground. Call the police to arrest him. (False arrest)?

D: (Other possibilities)?

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:07 pm

D: (Other possibilities)?

I like what Mr.Fitzen says...pull your knife then take out your gun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymghcLErQ-4

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:31 pm

Going for your knife or your gun involves about the same motions and time frame.

We practiced this with the real lethal Force experts like John Farnam of DTI. He has killed quite a few felons in his police career.

The practice of the Tueller drill taught us some serious lessons.

But say you are in a market shopping center putting away your groceries in your car:

a voice from behind " give me all your money or I'll f*uck you up man"

As you turn you are able to draw your gun and see the POS 10 feet away.

Now what do you do out of the choices above and why?

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:01 pm

Quote
"Going for your knife or your gun involves about the same motions and time frame"
Well I don't think that it does

........it's kinda like trad MA and modern MA ..everybody has a viewpoint ( my country is different, we live in a totalitarian regime where we are not allowed to defend ourselves

)

but..... knifers and gunners

.........I love both, but a preference for the blade.and it comes down to a few things , BTW I know nothing about firearms.but I do know knives are very,very scary close in....and I can deploy a blade far faster ( I believe) than a gun...I'm talking about a good fixed blade on your hip or in a carry holster similar to a gun.maybe a cold steel tanto....I believe draw,cut and slash can be quicker than Draw, aim and issue an ultimatum...which is what it will turn out to be real world .....now distance is a crucial factor in this type of thinking....and to be honest I'm not that set in my ways to totally disagree with folks on this....just expressing an opinion...but there will be a difference in what you think when you draw a gun and when you draw a knife...........in the UK because we don't have guns we tend to think that if we did there would be no problem in defending ourselves...I have this viewpoint also.....I pull a gun on somebody I wouldn't heitate to shoot ( in my honest opinion)....and I'm no tough guy and have no access to guns

I believe that all the left wing bitching about firearms control in some US states has undermined your rights under the second amendment ( right to bare arms?).and folks who have a legitimate right to defend themselves will start thinking........what are the consequences?...but Hey I don't know the US laws

Jason Rees · Post by **Jason Rees** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:23 pm

If you have a knife and a gun, I don't see a reason to not pull the gun. Most places that ban guns ban knives too, so it's not like you're placing yourself in more jeapardy legally.

I'd pull the gun, order them to drop the knife, and tell them to get the f away. If they had a gun, they'd have pulled it by now, and without a knife, they're less a danger.

Pick up the knife by the blade, don't touch the handle. If they go to the cops saying you were brandishing, you've still got their fingerprints on the hilt.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:32 pm

I can deploy a blade far faster ( I believe) than a gun...I'm talking about a good fixed blade on your hip or in a carry holster similar to a gun.maybe a cold steel tanto....I believe draw,cut and slash can be quicker than Draw, aim and issue an ultimatum..

but there will be a difference in what you think when you draw a gun and when you draw a knife…

I disagree. People trained in gun handling will carry the gun in a way that will draw fast as lightning…

No such thing as ‘aim and fire’ at close quarters…you just point and shoot, like pointing your index finger at anything without using your eyes.

The pistol can be fired from the hip or from the pocket of a wind breaker jacket for example [my favorite]…the attacker at close range will never even see the gun as he gets shot in the guts by a .38 cal high velocity ‘dumdum’ bullet.

Here is the ‘belly gun’ I carry in ways hard to detect.

Notice the hammerless design…it will never snag on clothing…

Shooting someone is easier than knifing someone according to studies by Grossman.

People who get knifed don’t stop as quickly as one imagines, no matter where they are cut…read the article by Darren Laur…very informative.

Getting shot in center mass or lower belly/groin…with a double tap…well, you go nowhere but a standing casket to die in peace.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:35 pm

Jason Rees wrote:If you have a knife and a gun, I don't see a reason to not pull the gun. Most places that ban guns ban knives too, so it's not like you're placing yourself in more jeapardy legally.

I'd pull the gun, order them to drop the knife, and tell them to get the f away. If they had a gun, they'd have pulled it by now, and without a knife, they're less a danger.

Pick up the knife by the blade, don't touch the handle. If they go to the cops saying you were brandishing, you've still got their fingerprints on the hilt.

The best answer, Jason.

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:00 am

That's a beauty Van!
Short barrel, easily hidden, must be good for close range.

F.

Jason Rees · Post by **Jason Rees** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:09 am

Van Canna wrote:
The best answer, Jason.

I'm still alive.

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:56 pm

Van Canna wrote:The practice of the Tueller drill taught us some serious lessons.

But say you are in a market shopping center putting away your groceries in your car:

a voice from behind " give me all your money or I'll f*uck you up man"

As you turn you are able to draw your gun and see the POS 10 feet away.

Now what do you do out of the choices above and why?

First thing I'd do is start throwing my groceries at the guy. Heck as long as I have some kind of weapon right at hand I might as well use it rather than draw my handgun. If I have a shopping cart I'd get that between us and then draw, if not I'd get the car or some other obstacle between us to create distance and draw. If he still approaches then the sh!t is really hitting the fan and I'd have to shoot. If he hasn't taken off and he's still standing there I'd order him to drop the weapon and head in a specific direction. I'd also be getting my ass out of there to a safer location.

mhosea · Post by **mhosea** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:17 pm

I'd pull my gun. I sure wouldn't try to arrest him. That's going to be a huge mess, and if he tries to leave when I'm trying to arrest him (by myself!), do I shoot him? No, he can leave if he wants to leave. I'm just protecting myself.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:34 pm

The answer depends a lot on where you are. And very often, my answer would be "none of the above." It just depends...

In Virginia, there are more protections for carrying a firearm than there are for carrying other weapons. Consequently the firearm is the weapon of choice here for this and other reasons stated above.

Remember that if you are close enough to use your blade, they are close enough to use their's. All the FMA lessons, training, and practice aren't going to convince me to walk voluntarily into a knife fight. The more I know, the more I know I don't go there unless I have no choice.

Distance is your friend here, as are the local laws - if you abide by them.

Try detaining for arrest? I don't think so. I don't have the badge, I don't have the cuffs, and I don't have the training. If they voluntarily drop the knife and appear cooperative, then maybe...

I've actually done that before empty-handed to an armed perp who was removing a tape deck from my car. Long story... I deftly orchestrated help around me, and pulled it off without a hitch. But back then I was young, dumb, and full of ... Plus I was filled with quite a bit of self-righteous anger at the punk. Being in the right and the victim of an idiot can be used as fuel for your process.

Van wrote:
If you are confronted by a mugger with a knife, and you, Mr. Quick Draw, produce your firearm

So the Tueller drill need not apply. However what I do next depends a lot on how far away they are. If I don't trust my ability to react to a sudden lunge and/or vulnerable family is nearby, I shoot twice to the center of mass. If I have distance and a logistical advantage, I tell them to drop the knife and beat it. If they beat it while still holding the knife, I don't shoot the perp in the back.

Good point about not picking the knife up by the handle. However I'm not touching it at all. I let the police handle that. And I make damn sure that I am the first to call 911, or at least do it as quickly as is safely possible.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:50 pm

Van Canna wrote:

Here is the ‘belly gun’ I carry in ways hard to detect.

That's a nice toy, Van.

Rich has let me fire his titanium toy. However I don't like it. It's a personal thing. I have a familial tremor, and need some mass to dampen the hand movement. I prefer some of the smaller Glocks - particularly those that fire a .45 rather than .38 round.

It's always a balance between what you're likely to carry vs. what you can reasonably shoot. In my case, I prefer something just a bit heavier.

- Bill

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:59 pm

First thing I'd do is start throwing my groceries at the guy.

Yes, but only if as I turned I’d still have a bag of them in my hands. If not…turning into the car gain to grab ‘something” might trigger an attack at your back.

I'd pull my gun. I sure wouldn't try to arrest him. That's going to be a huge mess, and if he tries to leave when I'm trying to arrest him (by myself!), do I shoot him? No, he can leave if he wants to leave. I'm just protecting myself.
_________________
Mike

I agree.

The answer depends a lot on where you are. And very often, my answer would be "none of the above." It just depends...

In Virginia, there are more protections for carrying a firearm than there are for carrying other weapons. Consequently the firearm is the weapon of choice here for this and other reasons stated above.

Remember that if you are close enough to use your blade, they are close enough to use their's. All the FMA lessons, training, and practice aren't going to convince me to walk voluntarily into a knife fight. The more I know, the more I know I don't go there unless I have no choice.

I agree totally. However some people, because of the training you mentioned, may feel empowered enough to foolishly get into a knife fight…with some serious consequences, win or lose.

Try detaining for arrest? I don't think so. I don't have the badge, I don't have the cuffs, and I don't have the training. If they voluntarily drop the knife and appear cooperative, then maybe...

Not at all for me. Even if he asked me to arrest him I wouldn’t do it. Think of the legal ramifications and the hit in your pockets after his lawyer gets through with you.

I would Just tell him to get lost, call 911 and stand by the knife with my gun back in your pockets, and wait for the police...and as they approach…put hands up and away from the body while pointing at the knife on the ground.

The gun you see, Bill, is not Titanium.

I agree with the bigger bullet in the Glock…problem is I would not carry it as comfortably as I do the .38 special.

My carry mode is to totally surprise and shock the bad guy…in my windbreaker pocket, as one carry mode, with the advantage that I can shoot from the pocket without snagging. I would not trust firing a slide gun from a pocket.

There is another way to shoot a pistol that is very fast, it is the ‘speed rock’ you may be familiar with.

Yet another is to draw, fall backwards and shoot.

So Ray, someone well trained with the gun, will beat a knife every time, unless the stabbing is a surprise attack.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:22 pm

Other Lessons

Two guns jammed: a Glock and a Beretta, two of the most reliable auto pistols made. Both choked for the same reason.

Firing with the elbow touching the body, the forearm is driven back by recoil. This is irrelevant with revolvers, but any auto pistol needs a firm abutment of a frame for the slide to work against.

With the unlocked forearm, like the unlocked wrist, the frame moves with the slide in recoil and dissipates the slide's momentum, causing a stoppage. When shooting like this, lock the forearm to keep your auto functioning.