Dilemma

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:54 pm

Van Canna wrote:
First thing I'd do is start throwing my groceries at the guy.
Yes, but only if as I turned I’d still have a bag of them in my hands. If not…turning into the car gain to grab ‘something” might trigger an attack at your back.

But say you are in a market shopping center putting away your groceries in your car:

It would seem that I already have an attack at my back. Likely my hands would be on the groceries, but you don't need an entire bag to toss in someones face.
A friend of mine who is a deputy was telling us stories that the smarter bad guys in this type of encounter will wait until your hands are holding something when starting the robbery.

a voice from behind " give me all your money or I'll f*uck you up man"

And that's why you better be reacting as soon as you hear those words. Now you can't be sure it's not a friend playing a joke, (I've had that happen), or a real robbery attempt (been in that situation too).

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:43 pm

But say you are in a market shopping center putting away your groceries in your car:

There are many ways to deal with this I am sure…like you suggest…but what follows is my preferred one_

Yes…I am picking up shopping bags from a cart and placing them in the trunk and I am wearing a gun…in the windbreaker jacket pocket.

Likely my hands would be on the groceries, but you don't need an entire bag to toss in someone’s face.

Yes, but you don’t know what is behind you…it could be just a panhandler…it could be someone holding a knife or someone holding a gun pointed at your back.

a voice from behind " give me all your money or I'll f*uck you up man"

So you turn tossing groceries at him and reflexively he charges at you with the blade and sticks you.

At 21 feet[Tueller] it would take him about 1.5 seconds to stick the blade into you.

At 10 feet how long would it take?

Or startled by your toss of groceries…he just pulls the trigger and you get shot.

The reason why I would turn to my left into him covering my right hand behind my bladed body, while putting my hand in the pocket and around my pistol.

Now if he charges with a blade all I need to do is pull the trigger from inside the pocket.

If he has a gun…then the choice is yours…fire first from your pocket or give him your wallet with your left hand.

And these are all suppositions.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:45 pm

Van Canna wrote:
But say you are in a market shopping center putting away your groceries in your car:

a voice from behind " give me all your money or I'll f*uck you up man"

IF that is the scenario AND you are packing heat, why bother with the groceries? The perp just asked you to put your hand in your pocket, right? Why not oblige?

And I am very serious here.

Along those lines... half the talent I learned for handling situations like this I acquired in high school drama. It helps to play-act the fearful victim as you reach for your "valuables." Walk softly but carry a big boom.

- Bill

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:47 pm

Amen, Bill.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:51 pm

Another thing to ponder.

I have been stopped a "couple times"

for driving in a "spirited" fashion. Anyhoo... I am extremely conscious of how nervous a LEO is when pulling someone over. I make sure I tell them everything I do before I do it. I make no sudden movements.

In Virginia they potentially know that I have concealed carry before they reach the car. It depends upon how much data he digs up before exiting his cruiser.

- Bill

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:59 pm

Wise to do so Bill. So when you get pulled over do you immediately tell him if you are packing and where the gun is?

Will the police then search your car for another?

State tropers here have the 'rule of two' _

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:02 am

But say you knife or shoot the robber.

What do you think chances are a jury would ask: Why did you not just let him have the money...poor guy was desperate to feed his family...did you have to hurt him? Kill him?

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:08 am

Van Canna wrote:Wise to do so Bill. So when you get pulled over do you immediately tell him if you are packing and where the gun is?

Will the police then search your car for another?

State tropers here have the 'rule of two' _

I tell them everything that will help them.

I spoke of "payback" on another thread. Someone fed false information to the police, and my home got raided by half of the local county police force. Oh my god... they left nothing to chance.

The first thing I did when I let the army in the door was I told them I was flattered.

Then I told them where all the firearms were, where the large dog was, etc., etc. There were no surprises for them.

Except there was one surprise. They found nothing, and realized they had been fed false information. No blood, no foul.

They are now helping ME with payback.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:13 am

Van Canna wrote:
But say you knife or shoot the robber.

What do you think chances are a jury would ask: Why did you not just let him have the money...poor guy was desperate to feed his family...did you have to hurt him? Kill him?

I was in fear of my life.

I was in fear of the lives of my children. I did not want them to grow up without a daddy, or live at all if he hurt one of them. Blah, blah, blah...

If I have to get cute to take him, the perp gets the money and goes. If he is stupid (twice), then you gotta do what you gotta do.

- Bill

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:41 am

a voice from behind " give me all your money or I'll f*uck you up man"

So you turn tossing groceries at him and reflexively he charges at you with the blade and sticks you.

Yes Van, in all the times I've thrown something into someones face, both in training and a few times in the real world, they have reflexively charged.

At 21 feet[Tueller] it would take him about 1.5 seconds to stick the blade into you.

Yes Van, I've been trained to do this and stand still and not move at all never putting distance and obstacles between us.

IF that is the scenario AND you are packing heat, why bother with the groceries? The perp just asked you to put your hand in your pocket, right? Why not oblige?

True enough Bill, but I personally don't like to have a hand in my pocket when a possible attacker is 10 feet away and possibly armed. Don't forget the Tueller drill and this perp is one of the super ones who doesn't have a normal flinch response

. He may just attack anyway while you're doing your quick draw.

BTW, I'm not the only guy to think in this backwards way.

http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol ... Drill.aspx

Good night gents.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:06 am

MikeK wrote:
True enough Bill, but I personally don't like to have a hand in my pocket when a possible attacker is 10 feet away and possibly armed. Don't forget the Tueller drill and this perp is one of the super ones who doesn't have a normal flinch response . He may just attack anyway while you're doing your quick draw.

Umm... Again, he just asked me to put my hand in my pocket. What the hell else am I supposed to do, say no and get knifed?

After all, I'm only being cooperative...

FWIW, I'm one of two people I know who stumped the Tueller drill. (Rich witnessed it.) Van knows the other fellow...

- Bill

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:26 am

Yes Van, in all the times I've thrown something into someones face, both in training and a few times in the real world, they have reflexively charged.

Maybe I should have said he’ll duck and charge you really pissed off.

Yes Van, I've been trained to do this and stand still and not move at all never putting distance and obstacles between us.

From ten feet away he will be on you in about ½_ 3/4 second. Will you have enough time to move and or put obstacles between?

Maybe so but not the way we were trained by John Farnam of defense Training International.

Mr. Farnam showed us that you will have to deal with perception time first and reaction time next in any defensive situation.

Perception time is the three-quarters of a second it takes for you to realize that you need to do something.

Reaction time is the three-quarters of a second it takes to do what you chose to do.

This is the average.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:31 am

He may just attack anyway while you're doing your quick draw.

In the example I gave you Mike, there is no draw...

My hand goes into my right pocket, the move screened by my left side turning to him, and the pistol fires next from my pocket. You missed that.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:33 am

Bill,

Good point in doing what will help the police.

What in hell were they looking for in your home?

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:00 am

Van Canna wrote:
Bill,

Good point in doing what will help the police.

What in hell were they looking for in your home?

The individuals involved were running a steal-and-sell crime ring. Stuff from unlocked cars, open garages, the local gym, isolating individuals and robbing them, etc., etc. I guess when the squeeze got put on them, they retaliated by saying a big stash of stuff was in my home. (The list on the search warrant is long, and encompasses many things that most people have in their home. Imagine me trying to explain my camera collection that goes back 3 decades. "Do you have a receipt for that?" Oye!!)

I wasn't amused, but I understood immediately what was going on. I helped them out best I could - complete with a sense of humor. By the time it was over with, they were admiring my dog. From a distance...

(Obviously no dog people in their small army.)

I got an apology from the head detective. No sweat.

Now the local police aren't amused. What goes around comes around.

- Bill