Dilemma

[Van Canna]

Rich Dmitri[Senshido]

The difference between the dojo and the street is the unknown. Remember, awareness, consent and preparation will not be present.

Therefore the mind set is that of surprise and the attack is usually sudden when one is ill prepared and most always starts with an attack on the mind which triggers emotional inertia. Like it or not.

For example in the attack of this parking lot…most of us would never expect such a thing to happen…the tendency is to feel secure in the crowd of shoppers all around you, in a private lot where you might have seen roving security cars in the past.

The emotional inertia is a real possibility.

Bill,

What did they have against you in feeding the cops the wrong information?

Kind of strange.

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill,

What did they have against you in feeding the cops the wrong information?

Kind of strange.

Nothing on me, Van. In fact they told me that right away. It's a very long story. One day I'll explain it.

I'm helping someone else prosecute a very bad person. No good deed goes unpunished.

It's OK. The best is yet to come.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

[Van Canna]

Flinching and jerking both occur, and while some flinches are large movements, others are small and difficult to detect.

Flinching may be caused when we become nervous.

Involuntary trigger pull will happen when muscles contract to maintain balance_

Then you have sympathetic contractions as the police coined the phrase.

When the muscles in one limb are engaged in performing an action, such as in this case, one arm possibly flinching up to protect the face from an oncoming thrown object, the muscles in the other hand will contract.

If you have a finger around a gun trigger, the gun will fire. Where the bullet will land is open to speculation...but it may well end up in the brain of the victim ten feet away.

In high threat stress situations the involuntary trigger squeeze can happen even if the trigger pull exceeds the 11.4 lbs weight[reason why the NY police has their Glocks with the NY trigger of 12 LBS.]

The problem is exacerbated if the perp is under the influence of Alcohol or drugs, in addition to his being nervous at the time of the stick up.

Methamphetamine in particular…a drug that will mimic the fight or flight response action_ causing increased strength_ with paranoia and hostile, aggressive behavior.

I would be very, very careful in taking action while turning into an unknown deadly threat at your back. You do nothing until you evaluate the situation first, training to 'go armed' in the evaluation phase without triggering possible deadly force.

[Chris McKaskell]

All very interesting, but what if one has no weapon at all?

There must be a wealth of possibilities in the bag of groceries you're already holding in front of you.

Will slowly turning and taking an improvised weopon have a similar, aggravating effect on the attacker? -- I mean something that one wouldn't usually see as a weapon, such as a can of tomato paste or a box of saran wrap?

Another way of looking at this might be - is a ball point pen really as effective as some trainers like to suggest??

[Jason Rees]

All very interesting, but what if one has no weapon at all?

Keep the vehicle between you and him, maybe even climb up on the roof of the vehicle. Then you have the high ground, which is a substantial advantage. Not to mention, something that would certainly get attention in a parking lot if it's during daylight hours at your average foodmarket store.

There must be a wealth of possibilities in the bag of groceries you're already holding in front of you.

Will slowly turning and taking an improvised weopon have a similar, aggravating effect on the attacker? -- I mean something that one wouldn't usually see as a weapon, such as a can of tomato paste or a box of saran wrap?

Nothing I would trust my life to.

Another way of looking at this might be - is a ball point pen really as effective as some trainers like to suggest??

Even if you're willing to use it, it is an inferior weapon - the knife can stab and slash, the stabbing with more cutting edge, and therefore deeper and more devastating. The pen? Sure, you can poke a hole in somebody... but are you willing and able to get it past their defenses to slam it somewhere it'll stop them?

I think I'd rather use my hands.

[Van Canna]

Good questions Chris, but Jason provides the sensible answers...not trusting your life to assumptions.

As Senshido says

The difference between the dojo and the street is the unknown. Remember, awareness, consent and preparation will not be present.

We like to think that we are ‘different’ _ that awareness and preparation is always there, because of our ‘training’…the reality is ‘not really’

So always think of the unknown….the voice behind you threatening deadly force is a big unknown. It might well be there is more than one person to your back.

Turning while tossing something may or may not work depending on what’s behind you.

If you are not armed and turn around and see a guy who is 6’ 4” …275 lbs…obviously high on something…now what do you do?

Sure…we are ‘trained’ to prevail upon such an enemy with our empty hands…right? Like Rory writes…assumptions are what will kill us. You piss the guy off...he will get you in a bear hug and snap your back. No...it cannot happen to us 'trained karate men'

I want to look and see what I will be triggering before I elicit a trigger from an unknown.

[Bill Glasheen]

A couple of thoughts to share...

When I think about my limited experience in real self-defense or citizen action experiences, I think of my martial training helping me the same way I think of weight training helping me in the dojo. In other words, I'm glad I did it and it beats the alternative (no martial training for the streets, or no weight training for the dojo). But it isn't what carried me through.

What carried me through is something I don't know I can put my finger on. It comes largely from experience dealing with the unknown. This is why I think it's so important to do scenario training, teach, get out of your dojo and work with others, rotate training partners, read, test your ideas on others, get a life, etc., etc. Because what brought me through is my ability to think on my feet.

When I think about these scenarios where you are supposed to respond with a solution, I no longer get obsessed with "the right" answer. Rather I view it as an opportunity to try suggesting a response, and then let the peanut gallery beat it to hell. Why? Because in real life you will make a choice, and then beat yourself up about that choice you made for the next few days to maybe even years.

There is rarely a "perfect" solution to a self-defense problem in real life. There is a spectrum of responses, and then there is the chaotic (in the true mathematical sense) aspect of reality. You just can't fully predict what will happen if... You just make a choice and commit. And then life will happen.

These are wonderful exercises. And don't worry about getting frustrated with the myriad responses and the criticisms. THAT is more like the reality you'll face on the street. Get used to it.

True warriors are like good poker players. They are addicted to chance and the unknown. They have a tolerance for failure, and a fearless attitude in the face of failure. They know that "a good day" is 80% skill and 20% dumb luck. They know that they can change their destiny, but are resolved to the fact that they don't fully control it. And that's fine by them.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Excellent points.

And the reality of it is ...that even after all this 'scenario thinking and training' we might end up doing the wrong move after all...and pay dearly for it.

Here is Rory

Most styles and instructors are remarkably well adapted to getting the win in the right kind of the fight, and crippled when the fight doesn't match their expectations or when the conditions of a win change.

Wiser words never written.

[robb buckland]

......"True warriors are like good poker players. They are addicted to chance and the unknown. They have a tolerance for failure, and a fearless attitude in the face of failure. They know that "a good day" is 80% skill and 20% dumb luck. They know that they can change their destiny, but are resolved to the fact that they don't fully control it. And that's fine by them."

AHMEN

[MikeK]

He may just attack anyway while you're doing your quick draw.

In the example I gave you Mike, there is no draw...

My hand goes into my right pocket, the move screened by my left side turning to him, and the pistol fires next from my pocket. You missed that.

Oh, I thought we changed the scenario as you said we were putting our groceries into the trunk. I don't know about the rest of you but I rarely have my side arm in hand when loading up the trunk.

[Van Canna]

Mike,

You wrote

Oh, I thought we changed the scenario as you said we were putting our groceries into the trunk. I don't know about the rest of you but I rarely have my side arm in hand when loading up the trunk.

Maybe I am not making my thoughts clear Mike, or you keep missing what I wrote:

> The reason why I would turn to my left into him covering my right hand behind my bladed body, while putting my hand in the pocket and around my pistol.

Now if he charges with a blade all I need to do is pull the trigger from inside the pocket.

If he has a gun…then the choice is yours…fire first from your pocket or give him your wallet with your left hand.

And these are all suppositions. <

So what I am saying is:

1. That you are placing a bag of groceries in your car with both arms semi extended or fully extended…somewhat bent at the waist.

2. Now you hear those words behind you.

3. “Turn to my left into him covering my right hand behind my bladed body, while putting my hand in the pocket and around my pistol.”

~~

Obviously the hand is not in your pocket when you put the groceries away…but it finds its way into your pocket as you turn left into the threat…the act of putting your hand in the pocket masked by your bladed body as it turns.

~~

Again this is just one way of dealing with the problem depending upon individual training and preferences.

I want to know what is behind me before I take any action what so ever.

As Jason said…I would not do anything I could not trust my life to.

Your act of throwing something at an unknown situation[he could be holding a gun on you, with a sympathetic reaction causing his trigger finger to tighten and fire the pistol at you]_ this has gotten lots of cops into trouble in many cases.

He could duck and charge you with a blade…at 10 feet he will need about ½ second to close the distance…you may or may not be able to move to sidestep the attack based on the reaction time tables I pointed out to you.

There could be two enemies behind you with weapons…so even if you startle one with your groceries toss, the other may close in and stab you, or just shoot you.

But then again you might be able to get away with it.

This discussion is similar to the one on the other forum…everybody has and should have an opinion that can be discussed rationally.

Personally, I want to see what’s behind me before I trigger any response action.

This might be a good training scenario for the dojo introducing the variables I mentioned.

I hope this helps