Is your black belt worth anything?

[miked]

http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-1765 ... h-anything

Regards,

Mike D.
Los Angeles, CA
www.uechi-la.org
mjdcgb@ca.rr.com

[Bill Glasheen]

Note: No offense is meant to the children in the embedded videos or to their instructors. As to the chimp, would he really care one way or another?

I'd have no problem offending the instructors of these kids. Teach them? Yes. Give a black belt for childish abilities? Res ipsa loquitur.

As for the chimp... I'd put my money on a random chimp (w/o martial arts training) vs. a random black belt. They are nasty and capable fighters, and are 4-7 times stronger than humans. The TKD kicking is just for entertainment, and for the amusement of the teacher. They don't need it.

This is what a chimpanzee bite can do to you.



This is chimpanzee fighting in the wild.

Eastern chimpanzee fighting with baboon

Would YOU fight with a baboon? Yes I would to defend my kid, but...

- Bill

[miked]

Bill,

I know that you agree that chimps are nasty, deadly fighters and that doesn't make them black belts. Otherwise, we might as well put black belts on Lions., Tiger and Bears - Oh no!

Mike

[AAAhmed46]

Bill,

I know that you agree that chimps are nasty, deadly fighters and that doesn't make them black belts. Otherwise, we might as well put black belts on Lions., Tiger and Bears - Oh no!

Mike

Though i agree with you, i just HAVE to write the following in homage to badassery of certain animals.

Why not? An entire part of uechi-ryu is based on the tiger.I heard people describe baji quan as 'bear like' and lions play fight and PRACTICE fighting(IE why some people think a lion could beat a Siberian tiger, despite it's size, some guys argue that the fact lions actually 'practice' fighting each other in their prides makes them individually more powerful. Don't know if i agree though, there is footage(though it's possible it's a hoax) of a lion beating up a tiger.


;D

[AAAhmed46]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cyu7tUEgs4







Animal face off:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_PHs-kbypo


Trainin

[miked]

Aamed,

Cool animal video.

More importantly, why are instructors handing out black belts to kids who can barely walk?

Is this what commercialization of dan ranks come down to?

The ultimate question that comes up is how do you continue to motivate a kid to progress when he/she starts training at 3?

My response is to not start kids at 3. Beyond that age, the motivation must be driven by something other than belt rankings. Gold stars, Lollipops and names in blinking shining neon lights may well do the trick

Regards,

Mike DeDonato
Los Angeles, CA
310 710-6334
mjdcgb@ca.rr.com

[AAAhmed46]

Aamed,

Cool animal video.

More importantly, why are instructors handing out black belts to kids who can barely walk?

Is this what commercialization of dan ranks come down to?

The ultimate question that comes up is how do you continue to motivate a kid to progress when he/she starts training at 3?

My response is to not start kids at 3. Beyond that age, the motivation must be driven by something other than belt rankings. Gold stars, Lollipops and names in blinking shining neon lights may well do the trick

Regards,

Mike DeDonato
Los Angeles, CA
310 710-6334
mjdcgb@ca.rr.com

Basically, i doubt anyone who has only been a human being for 6 years be able to master something as complex as combat...even just one range.

I blame the parents. They hand out belts to please the kid's mommy and daddy, so they can feel so proud that little timmy has his black belt.


Solution? Pressure tested competition.

If the kid cannot hold his own against most black belts when he's old enough to compete, then he shouldn't have a black belt. I mean look at that kyokushin vs san shou video. Both are kids, both punch, kick(and in case of the san shou kid) throw better then most adults in their particular art, and im positive when the kid grows up he'll be able to kick the crap out of most black belts, because he could fairly hold that rank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWuKaU4RXOQ


If they could not defend their rank, would they even have them?

[miked]

Aaahmed,

I have two points concerning the kids that were in your most recent youtube posting.

1. Kids, at that age, simply should not be engaged in full contact fighting without protective gear. Yes, they were wearing head gear but I am talking about body gear. Neither have physically matured to the point where this type of fighting is appropriate. My opinion, of course.

2. They are skilled kids. Put up an adult male black belt who has the same number of years of training in the same disciplines with the same instructors and each kid would be overwhelmed.

Sorry, the kids simply do not have the mental, spiritual and physical maturity for anyone to say that they hold the equivalent of an adult black belt.

Of course, there are really bad adults who sport a black belt. I am sure these young fighters could beat these folks as could anyone's teenage sister . These individuals are also not worthy to have earned the rank.


My reference is to skilled, iron willed, disciplined, fully grown black belts training under proper instruction with appropriate and frequent guidance.

Regards,

Mike DeDonato
Los Angeles, CA
mjdcgb@ca.rr.com
www.uechi-la.org

[AAAhmed46]

Aaahmed,

I have two points concerning the kids that were in your most recent youtube posting.

1. Kids, at that age, simply should not be engaged in full contact fighting without protective gear. Yes, they were wearing head gear but I am talking about body gear. Neither have physically matured to the point where this type of fighting is appropriate. My opinion, of course.

2. They are skilled kids. Put up an adult male black belt who has the same number of years of training in the same disciplines with the same instructors and each kid would be overwhelmed.

Sorry, the kids simply do not have the mental, spiritual and physical maturity for anyone to say that they hold the equivalent of an adult black belt.

Of course, there are really bad adults who sport a black belt. I am sure these young fighters could beat these folks as could anyone's teenage sister . These individuals are also not worthy to have earned the rank.


My reference is to skilled, iron willed, disciplined, fully grown black belts training under proper instruction with appropriate and frequent guidance.

Regards,

Mike DeDonato
Los Angeles, CA
mjdcgb@ca.rr.com
www.uechi-la.org

For the most part i agree with you.

Yes, kids sparring at that age is dangerous. But then again, every kid is different. I lack enough knowledge to truly judge this, maybe if i get experience teaching kids i may be able to comment more on it.

I don't defend kids with black belts, infact im very much against it.

What i do believe however is a truly exceptional child, who shows true skill in said art, should be granted one. I don't mean a 6-12 year old, but maybe a 14 or 15 year old.

If you look at Islamic history for instance, Ali was a teenager, yet was reputed to being among the strongest and skilled warriors among the Muslims.(I don't know his exact age however, 7th century arabia was horrible in terms of birth and death records.) Fought duels and the like. Now, there were no other teenagers as skilled as him, but there were other teenagers who were soldiers that were successful enough to survive( i forgot their names, but if you really really want to know, i could find out)

Just 400 years ago, manhood was measured by independence and the ability to shoot sperm, not chronological age. But the industrial revolution, the age of enlightenment changed that, for better or worse. Lets face it, childhood is artificial extended, due to knowledge requirements in terms of technology and science and just the way society and it's norms work. We no longer live in a time where you went out on the farm to milk cows and work on the field or cut wood or fight in battles.

I understand times have changed.

But...something like combat, martial arts, guns, knives, punching, kicking, grappling, something like that, does it really require the level of intellegence and maturity that a highschool graduate or college degree?

Lets look at warriors in history, though musashi and many samurai were literate, what about europe? I doubt many soldeirs knew how to read or write or use complex reasoning of politics, negotiation, psychology. THey knew how to swing a sword, smash with fists and flails and shoot arrows etc, etc. And many began their careers fairly young.


Now, if a teenager(which some consider still childlike) does not show ability or maturity to earn the belt, whether a lack of talent or a lack of restraint, they probably shouldn't get the damn thing, which is probably most people....these days.

But what if they CAN?

In those videos, those two kids are exceptional, an adult black belt would overwhelm them yes, but so would a 300 pound adult black belt overwhelm me or you(im assuming your normal sized, if not, forgive the comparison)
Hell look at brock lesner and frank mir, in terms of skill i think Mir is superior, but look what happened to mir dispite that. I only hope those kids are mentally mature enough not to abuse their skill or simply be stupid.

Ever read chuck norris "the secret power within" benny the jet was given his black belt pre-maturely. He passed the test...very very painfully.

But once again, benny the jet was exceptional.



I guess my argument comes down to making exception for the exceptional.

[Jim Robinson]

My personal opinion is if an instructor gives a black belt to a child it is nothing more than a McBelt given by an instructor who runs a McDojo.
Give children any color belt one chooses just don't give them a black belt.
Wait till the child is at least 16 years old.
Jim Robinson

[MikeK]

What is a black belt? Is it just a convienence or something with real value? We can say that it has meaning within a particular setting with particular groups of people, but outside of that what does it mean?
As far as what the old masters would think we'd first have to admit that few were "black belts". They had a set of skills and were recognized but their karate existed outside of a belt system. Few if any stood before a board to be tested or met any particular set of standards.
So if some guy wants to make kids black belts it's no worse than the Six Sigma guys calling himself a black belt, it only has true meaning in the group that awarded it.

[Bill Glasheen]

What is a black belt? Is it just a convienence or something with real value? We can say that it has meaning within a particular setting with particular groups of people, but outside of that what does it mean?

It COULD have meaning to the degree that it imparts certain privileges and recognition. The example often used when I was younger was that a black belt represented something like a high school diploma. You pretty much weren't prepared to get any half decent job (outside of manual labor) without it. Similarly you shouldn't be teaching karate without at least a first degree black belt.

On the other hand... You shouldn't be awarding a black belt to someone who can't stand in front of a class and teach. Obviously these kids can't do that. From what I saw of their performances, they're little better than trained monkeys (except that the monkeys really could kick your arse).

Advanced black belt (3rd or 4th degree) traditionally means you can open your own school.

Master means you are a teacher of teachers.

So if some guy wants to make kids black belts it's no worse than the Six Sigma guys calling himself a black belt, it only has true meaning in the group that awarded it.

Where there is no certification process worth a damn, then you'll get this kind of schlock. The guy could be more up front and just open up a martial arts supply store. Then he could sell the black belts (and maybe a box of blank diplomas) to whomever.

Six sigma isn't an appropriate comparison here.

First... There is a precedent for awarding belts in an activity that isn't martial. The game of go - an Asian activity - also is associated with belt levels. You get your rank through competition. And you can become a chess master, right?

Second... A green belt and a black belt in six sigma (combined with other education and knowledge) will get you employment. It is a universally recognized program with a process and certification. Back in the day when GE was king, Jack Welch demanded that all his management have black belts in six sigma. And in that day, I could blindly buy something with the GE name and be assured I got a good product.

- Bill

[miked]

Aaahmed wrote:

I understand times have changed.

"But...something like combat, martial arts, guns, knives, punching, kicking, grappling, something like that, does it really require the level of intelligence and maturity that a high school graduate or college degree?

Let's look at warriors in history, though musashi and many samurai were literate, what about Europe? I doubt many soldiers knew how to read or write or use complex reasoning of politics, negotiation, psychology. They knew how to swing a sword, smash with fists and flails and shoot arrows etc, etc. And many began their careers fairly young. "
----------------------------------------------------------

Aaahmed,

Consider the samurai. My understanding is that they were scholars as well as warriors as were knights. The best generals, throughout history, were not necessarily those with the biggest brawn and muscle. They were the best tacticians who learned and adapted strategies to achieve their ends. Brawn and muscle will only get you so far.

OK, so we are not training generals. We are, however, teaching and training karate-do not karate-jutsu. The "do" concept implies that we are teaching more than how to punch, kick, grapple, disable, maim and kill.

A child or teen under the age of 18, in my humble opinion, simply does not have the mental and emotional maturity to fully comprehend the "do" concept.

Yes, Lesnar and Mir could take me out in about two seconds or less. In my opinion, their physicality and brutishness does not necessarily qualify them to earn a black belt.

I believe that we should be looking at character, personality, emotional and physical maturity in addition to physical skill before allowing an individual to test for a dan rank.

Do exceptions exist? Yes. As with all endeavors, there are exceptions but it looks like we have fallen "off the cliff" while going down the "slippery slope".


All the best,

Mike DeDonato
Los Angeles
mjdcgb@ca.rr.com
www.uechi-la.org

[miked]

My personal opinion is if an instructor gives a black belt to a child it is nothing more than a McBelt given by an instructor who runs a McDojo.
Give children any color belt one chooses just don't give them a black belt.
Wait till the child is at least 16 years old.
Jim Robinson

Jim,

100% agreement.

Someone pointed to me that my perspective might change if I were running a full-time commercial dojo. Children bring in the $. There is a reason I and many others do not run such dojos. I suspect they would be miserable failures should we fail to cater parents.


Are there dojos out there that succeed in a commercial sense without lowering standards or catering to parents? Sure. Should they be awarding black belts to children with a claim that the rank is equivalent to an adult dan ranking? Absolutely not and I believe that the majority of these dojos do draw a distinction between an adult dan rank and a junior dan rank.

To be clear and honest, I participated in the promotion of a junior (11 yrs old) to a junior black belt rank. I was conflicted with the request to sit on the board but I chose to do so anyway to honor the instructor and student. I and the rest of the board made it clear to the student that he was earning a junior dan rank which did not equate to an adult dan rank and that the student would have to re-test for an adult Shodan when he reached the appropriate maturity level.

This has been the only junior dan rank that has been awarded under Okikukai West in Southern California. The student is "exceptional". In addition to winning tournament after tournament, he has the poise and maturity level of someone beyond his years.

Even so, I do not expect to see him test for an adult Shodan rank until he reaches the age of 16 1/2 or 17.

So how do we motivate kids without awarding dan ranks?

I do not have the answer to this question, but perhaps we use the tools that have been provided by school teachers and Boy/Girls Scouts. How about patches that represent an achievement of some sort or gold stars, etc.

Regards,

Mike DeDonato
mjdcgb@ca.rr.com
www.uechi-la.org

[miked]

As far as what the old masters would think we'd first have to admit that few were "black belts". They had a set of skills and were recognized but their karate existed outside of a belt system. Few if any stood before a board to be tested or met any particular set of standards.
.

Mike,

To my understanding, in the olden days of yore, teaching licenses (menkyo) were issued by instructors. Our Uechi history claims that Uechi Kanbun was one of the few non-Chinese that received such a license that allowed him to teach in China. I do not remember believe that such licenses were issued to children.

The belt system was introduced into the martial arts system by Jigaro Kano who borrowed it from swimming rankings in the early part of the 20th. century.

I do not think that Uechi Kanei, Shinjo Seiyu or Uehara ever issued a junior dan ranking. Nor do I think that Funakoshi, Miyagi Chojun or Ueshiba ever issued junior dan ranks.

If I am mistaken, someone please correct my impression.

Mike DeDonato
www.uechi-la.org
mjdcgb@ca.rr.com