Is your black belt worth anything?

[miked]

Bill wrote:

Where there is no certification process worth a damn, then you'll get this kind of schlock. The guy could be more up front and just open up a martial arts supply store. Then he could sell the black belts (and maybe a box of blank diplomas) to whomever.

Six sigma isn't an appropriate comparison here...A green belt and a black belt in six sigma (combined with other education and knowledge) will get you employment. It is a universally recognized program with a process and certification. Back in the day when GE was king, Jack Welch demanded that all his management have black belts in six sigma. And in that day, I could blindly buy something with the GE name and be assured I got a good product.

Standards, standards - certifications - qualifications. Back to the same old issue. Six sigma black belts are highly prized personnel. The standards are universal and verifiable.

Figure skating can be used in an analogy to our issue.

There is one governing international body that sets the standard and all clubs from neighborhood to country affiliations must put forth certified competitors and judges in the World and Olympic championships.

Everyone that has ever watched a skating routine now probably knows what the judges require to record a good sore for a "lutz"or "death spiral".

Yes, there are teens competing at the Olympic level but I seem to remember that there is now an age restriction or is that in gymnastics?

The WKF has tried to standardize competition. Sport karate was up for consideration by the IOC in August. Unfortunately, in my opinion, we lost out to Rugby and Golf!!? Rugby I can understand but golf as an Olympic sport? Yeah that's exciting. Woo hoo!!! I love Tiger as much as anyone but does his sport really require Olympic status? I would rather play than watch. No disrespect to those who enjoy watching the pros take a walk on a Sunday afternoon.




Regards,

Mike DeDonato
mjdcgb@ca.rr.com
www.uechi-la.org

[Jim Robinson]

In my dojo the Junior Black Belt has been awarded to very few. In thirty plus years teaching in Maine I believe I have awarded JBB to three children.
The youngster has to be exceptional in his/her training and at least 12 years of age.
An in house certificate is awarded to the child with the understanding that he/she will have to test for Shodan when they are sixteen.
Jim Robinson

[MikeK]

To my understanding, in the olden days of yore, teaching licenses (menkyo) were issued by instructors. Our Uechi history claims that Uechi Kanbun was one of the few non-Chinese that received such a license that allowed him to teach in China. I do not remember believe that such licenses were issued to children.

I think the menkyo kaiden is a better system than belt ranking for declaring someone an instructor, it's not as nebulas as belts within a ryu.
BTW I don't the Chinese used the menkyo system which was Japanese. Though I could be wrong.

The belt system was introduced into the martial arts system by Jigaro Kano who borrowed it from swimming rankings in the early part of the 20th. century.

I do not think that Uechi Kanei, Shinjo Seiyu or Uehara ever issued a junior dan ranking. Nor do I think that Funakoshi, Miyagi Chojun or Ueshiba ever issued junior dan ranks.

If I am mistaken, someone please correct my impression.

Beats me if they issued dan rank to kids, but does it matter? Is what we do really the same as what they're doing? Also we have to admit that in the past dan rank was issued by Okinawans to many who didn't know their art fully or that well, and the same problem often carries on in the states today. If someone wants kids to be a junior black belts in their system that's fine, it's there school, their system. Same goes for those who don't want it in their schools.

[MikeK]

It COULD have meaning to the degree that it imparts certain privileges and recognition. The example often used when I was younger was that a black belt represented something like a high school diploma. You pretty much weren't prepared to get any half decent job (outside of manual labor) without it. Similarly you shouldn't be teaching karate without at least a first degree black belt.

I don't think a black belt is anything like getting a high school diploma. Usually once you get one they boot your butt-ski out the door with a nice ceremony. A black belt on the other hand is encouraged to keep coming and to often to keep doing the same old things they did to get to black belt with secrets to follow. It's more like a secret society than being reflective of an education system.

On the other hand... You shouldn't be awarding a black belt to someone who can't stand in front of a class and teach. Obviously these kids can't do that. From what I saw of their performances, they're little better than trained monkeys (except that the monkeys really could kick your arse).

True in a way, but we don't allow teachers to teach without getting certified. I think there is a difference between knowing the material, being a fighter and being a teacher and maybe teaching should be a separate track when learning karate. Once again, how many adults are also more or less trained monkeys mimicking their instructors word for word? And God help them if they stray from that? So watching a bunch of kids do what many adults do doesn't bother me.

Advanced black belt (3rd or 4th degree) traditionally means you can open your own school.

Whose tradition? Did Itosu have a third degree black belt? The belt system is a modern invention as are many of the traditions that go along with it.

Master means you are a teacher of teachers.

Where did you get this from? As far as I know a master is just a guy who mastered the system and teaches anyone, or he's the top dog of the style.

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not against the belt system and I get a chuckle out of the kids with black belts. I even had a neighborhood mom ask me who would bow to who, if I met her 10 year old black belt. But really rank requirements haver to be either really strict which would mean many never reaching black belt (or brown, or blue, or green) to mean something, or else we just look at it as a convention that only holds meaning within the school who issued it.

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike

You should take a poll here of my general comments. I think you find that my general description holds vis-a-vis shodan vs. advanced dan vs. master title. I didn't make any of this up; it's been told to me by many who have spent their lives in traditional Okinawan arts.

No, this wasn't the case before the belt system.

No, this isn't the case with many modern commercial schools.

And yes, the belt is only as good as the school you got it from. But those schools are the way they are usually because a teacher followed a process and had standards. If this wasn't the case, Mike, then we wouldn't be experiencing a visceral reaction to the videos shown.

If one prejudges "traditional" as being a pejorative, well... prejudice is what it is. A good deal of that goes on.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Any fool can go to Wikipedia. But it's as good a place as any to start. It somewhat agrees with what I stated. However it inflates shodan a bit (bachelor degree as opposed to high school diploma). What-ever...

- Bill

Ability

In contrast to the "black belt as master" stereotype, a black belt commonly indicates the wearer is competent in a style's basic technique and principles.[2] Since in many styles a black belt takes approximately three to six years of training to achieve, a good intuitive analogy would be a bachelor's degree: the student has a good understanding of concepts and ability to use them but has not yet perfected their skills. In this analogy a master's degree and a doctorate would represent advancement past the first degree.

Another way to describe this links to the terms used in Japanese arts; shodan (for a first degree black belt), means literally the first/beginning step, and the next grades, nidan and sandan are each numbered as "ni" is two and "san" is three, meaning second step, third step, etc. The shodan black belt is not the end of training but rather as a beginning to advanced learning: the individual now "knows how to walk" and may thus begin the "journey".

As a 'black belt' is commonly viewed as conferring some status,[1] achieving one has been used as a marketing 'gimmick', for example a guarantee of being awarded one within a specific period or if a specific amount is paid.[3] Some schools place profit ahead of ability when using these tactics and are sometimes referred to as McDojos.[4]

Teaching

In some Japanese schools, after obtaining a black belt the student also begins to instruct, and may be referred to as a senpai (senior student) or sensei (teacher). In others, a black belt student should not be called sensei until they are sandan (third degree black belt), as this denotes a greater degree of experience and a sensei must have this and grasp of what is involved in teaching a martial art.

[mhosea]

It certainly agrees with my understanding, Bill. However, I don't think it inflates the shodan by comparing it to a bachelor's degree. You're thinking only in terms of academic standing, but HS diplomas do not have majors, and so they don't really represent advancement in anything specific. A "ryu" is specific and is more closely analogous to the major in a bachelor's program. Once you graduate with a bachelors degree, you can get a job as a doer, but you won't be running the show, people won't consider you an "authority", and you're not qualified to teach what you just learned. For that you have to get a master's degree, which I suppose would be roughly equivalent to sandan. The PhD, of course, correlates to master rank. If you're really a glutton for punishment in carrying analogies too far, you can make the teaching titles of renshi, kyoshi, and hanshi correspond to assistant professor, associate professor, and (full) professor.

[MikeK]

If one prejudges "traditional" as being a pejorative, well... prejudice is what it is. A good deal of that goes on.

Read what I wrote Bill, I didn't use traditional as a pejorative, I stated that many of karate's traditions are modern. They are modern traditions and not ancient traditions. Nothing wrong with them but there's no need to elevate them into "something that has always been."

You should take a poll here of my general comments. I think you find that my general description holds vis-a-vis shodan vs. advanced dan vs. master title. I didn't make any of this up; it's been told to me by many who have spent their lives in traditional Okinawan arts.

I can't help what others believe, I just don't agree with the view or the analogy.

And yes, the belt is only as good as the school you got it from. But those schools are the way they are usually because a teacher followed a process and had standards. If this wasn't the case, Mike, then we wouldn't be experiencing a visceral reaction to the videos shown.

Why are the reactions visceral? Does some kid getting a black belt from his school (using different standards) somehow degrade our achievements? Are we that insecure? Why should I care if some 8 year old gets a BB?

BTW, I believe that there was junior BB testing at a Summerfest. So the JBB idea seems to be OK with at least some Uechi seniors.

[Bill Glasheen]

And yes, the belt is only as good as the school you got it from. But those schools are the way they are usually because a teacher followed a process and had standards. If this wasn't the case, Mike, then we wouldn't be experiencing a visceral reaction to the videos shown.

Why are the reactions visceral? Does some kid getting a black belt from his school (using different standards) somehow degrade our achievements? Are we that insecure?

If you don't run a school, then this probably isn't going to bother you one way or another.

If you do run a school, then it CAN be a big deal. We get into issues such as

• Whether or not we can get liability insurance, and under what conditions. Tried doing that, Mike? And don't tell me it's not needed if you don't have your house and your personal wealth within the grasp of some trial lawyer hard up for cash. Even if you win that lawsuit, you can lose. And then the insurance companies now judge what we do and what various activities are based upon the schlock going on elsewhere. So great... now we can't get an insurance policy and have people spar unless they suit up like taequondo practitioners. There goes the Uechi. There goes the grappling applications. Yada, yada, yada.
  
  Standards matter, Mike. Just listen on some of these other threads where fans of the trial attorneys talk about wanting to sue doctors to improve their medical practice.
  
  I'm fortunate because I have strict process, access to good people, and run a tight ship. But stuff happens. Then I get a practitioner from a taequondo McDojo coming on as an "expert witness" saying I'm negligent because I didn't suit Johnny up the way they do in their schools where they rely on Michelin Man equipment to prevent Johnny from getting hurt.
• How society perceives and even rules on what we do. Regions have passed laws saying what weapons we can and can't have in our possession. They also have tried to regulate how, where, and what we teach, and under what conditions. It only takes one jacka$$ down the road doing stupid sheet to ruin it for everyone.
• What certification the public demands for being able to teach anywhere. Trust me, this matters. Go try teaching at any club around here, Mike. They start asking questions like this. I had a perfectly good woman available to teach a Little Dragons program for tiny tots. But it was a "no go" because she wasn't (yet) a black belt. Never mind that she was a personal trainer. Go figure... she was more qualified to teach something appropriate to the kids than I was with my 7th degree.

Standards matter, Mike. And those who devalue the standards CAN hurt us all.

BTW, I believe that there was junior BB testing at a Summerfest. So the JBB idea seems to be OK with at least some Uechi seniors.

A JUNIOR black belt is what it is, Mike. It's a temporary rank, and the belt even looks different. It means the kid can walk through the material, but (s)he's just a kid. Furthermore, that rank evaporates when the person becomes an adult. They must re-test as an adult to get the adult rank. It's like a diploma from kindergarten or from grammar school. That's calling a spade a spade.

FWIW, I've taught over 2000 people in my years, and I've given out one Junior BB. I subsequently re-tested the person for Black Belt when he reached the age of 17. This person was an honor roll student who had special abilities. (He could do a split, walk on the tips of his sokusen toes, had mastered ukemi, was used on AFFC commercials, etc., etc.) Since I had gotten him to the point where I was teaching him advanced forms and techniques, I needed some kind of recognition of his abilities.

- Bill

[MikeK]

A JUNIOR black belt is what it is, Mike. It's a temporary rank, and the belt even looks different. It means the kid can walk through the material, but (s)he's just a kid. Furthermore, that rank evaporates when the person becomes an adult. They must re-test as an adult to get the adult rank. It's like a diploma from kindergarten or from grammar school. That's calling a spade a spade.

FWIW, I've taught over 2000 people in my years, and I've given out one Junior BB. I subsequently re-tested the person for Black Belt when he reached the age of 17. This person was an honor roll student who had special abilities. (He could do a split, walk on the tips of his sokusen toes, had mastered ukemi, was used on AFFC commercials, etc., etc.) Since I had gotten him to the point where I was teaching him advanced forms and techniques, I needed some kind of recognition of his abilities.

Why did he need this special recognition? Wasn't learning advanced material enough? If the BB means something then you hold to the standard no matter what, even if part of that standard is age. If you don't, and age doesn't matter, then there is no harm in other styles and instructors awarding BB to 7 year olds. Is there also a age standard for brown belt or green?

And does the rank really evaporate? To that kid they achieved a BB, even if it's junior. It should mean something.
Do other ranks evaporate for adults? Should they?
What happens to those standards if someone with a disability comes in, say a physical handicap or just age. Do they get a special belt too? What about those who can no longer perform at a black belt standard level, does their rank evaporate also?

[MikeK]

If you don't run a school, then this probably isn't going to bother you one way or another.

If you do run a school, then it CAN be a big deal. We get into issues such as Whether or not we can get liability insurance, and under what conditions. Tried doing that, Mike?

Been through that with several friends, and it's a matter of paying up. My wife works for a high risk insurer so I know a little how that business runs and the standards they look for.

Of course standards matter but which standards? Most guys I know that fight or at least spar hard wear protection of some sort. At Thinh's we didn't wear gear and my Muay Thai friends thought we were nuts for doing so only wearing a gi. By their standards we were reckless, and by their standards they'd be right.

What certification the public demands for being able to teach anywhere. Trust me, this matters. Go try teaching at any club around here, Mike. They start asking questions like this. I had a perfectly good woman available to teach a Little Dragons program for tiny tots. But it was a "no go" because she wasn't (yet) a black belt. Never mind that she was a personal trainer. Go figure... she was more qualified to teach something appropriate to the kids than I was with my 7th degree.

Then maybe karate (generic term) needs a single standards organization. It would seem a black belt meant something to the people at AMFAM that didn't mean the same to you.

[Bill Glasheen]

Why did he need this special recognition? Wasn't learning advanced material enough?

No, Mike.

First of all kids don't quite have the caffeine in their martial coffee. For instance a kid can swing a bat and hit a ball, but you need to have them play on a smaller field to accommodate their inability to generate enough power even to hit it out of the infield in a MLB park. Secondly, they need to be working with less power at that age. Just like in baseball where they may swing at a 40-60 mph fastball in little league (vs. 80-100 in MLB) so too do you have them working with punches, kicks, and takedowns that involve considerably less force.

In Little Leauge it's the same bat (except aluminum), same balls, same gloves, and same general rules. But it's very different levels of energy. We don't kid ourselves into believing a top Little Leaguer would ever be able to play MLB. But we do give them a W vs. an L when they win or lose amongst each other. And we do vote on a Little Leauge MVP, and have a Little League All Star game.

Second, kids can't grasp and deal with the idea of killing or being assaulted. This is why I keep destroying copies of Halo every time the boys sneak it in the house and try to play online with it via the X-Box. It's why I pick and choose the violent movies I bring my kids to.

I had my Junior Black Belt read Darren Laur's The Anatomy of Fear when he became of age to test for an adult black belt. But not before. It wasn't time. I recommend my students read Grossman's On Killing when they are adults. But I don't have the kids read it.

Is there also a age standard for brown belt or green?

The belt system is entirely different for kids. Kyu rank belts are different colors, and there are more kyu ranks (16 vs. 10).

And does the rank really evaporate?

It really really does!

Do other ranks evaporate for adults?

Yes. An adult kyu rank is only valid for a year. If you don't test again in a year, the instructor has a right to reassign your rank to any level including beginning level.

Should they?

Given the (perhaps unexpected) answer to the previous question, the answer to this question is obvious.

What happens to those standards if someone with a disability comes in, say a physical handicap or just age.

The only rule written in stone here is that the sparring is optional above a certain age. But FWIW, many of my "senior" students elect to spar anyhow, because they want that belt to represent the same thing that a younger person's belt represents. I won't tell you what female just got her advanced black belt and decided to spar for her test because I'm not going to reveal just how young she is. But she did spar! And I'm proud of her for it.

Rare exceptions are made to accommodate unusual students. I once witnessed the black belt test of a blind student. It was... interesting. And I was proud of him for it.

What about those who can no longer perform at a black belt standard level, does their rank evaporate also?

No more than my Ph.D. would evaporate because I can't pass a partial differential equations final. However... I am now a trained scientist. In some ways I know less, but in many ways (because of my experience) I know a lot more.

But here's the thing. When I got my Ph.D., I would have had a good shot of getting into medical school. Not now. Same is true for someone a long way away from the dojo. If you haven't done karate for years after passing your shodan, don't expect to be ready for a nidan test for a long, long time.

- Bill