Southern Praying Mantis video

[Bill Glasheen]

Ray posted this in another thread. I extracted it and brought it over here for any further discussion.

Praying Mantis Kung Fu - Part 1 of 2

Ray wanted to emphasize in-fighting with this video.

I believe he's also trying to suggest that there's no core involvement with this type of fighting. To that I say that the "slappy" stuff is a bit void of any potency, so the issue of core involvement is moot if the technique isn't effective. However if you focus on the person's body instead of the arms, you will indeed see core involvement with many techniques.

- Bill

[jorvik]

Don't quite understand what you mean there Bill
To me it's a range thing, it's quite pointless fighting in a range that doesn't mirror what you will come upon in your home environment........folks like to pay lip service to thing like the "Interview stage" etc but never really bring that into their art or study an art which starts in that range...so that's the first thing.now as to the "slappy" stuff there are a couple of ways you can look at this....folks go on about how long it takes to "condition" themselves or get their "Core" involved into their movements and they expect to spend some time learning this............however, Bill you seem to imply that this isn't the case with close range fighting.you seem to think that you'll be good from the get go ..............same as with chain punching.folks who don't train it say that it has no power.and I agree.for them it has no power

Now if you look more closely at this mantis style you will see that much of what they are doing isn't a million miles away from CQB..i.e. grabbing the throat, hammer fist to the face.....and to my eyes it doesn't look a million miles away from Uechi either

[Bill Glasheen]

Hello, Ray! I hope this thread is more suitable for the points you wish to discuss.

That's quite the run-on sentence, so forgive me if I don't address all your points. But I'll pick a few that are interesting.

it doesn't look a million miles away from Uechi

Given the geographical origin of the style, it stands to reason that the two would share some principles.

These are the positive things I see that make it similar to Kanbun's style.

• Shallow, Sanchin-like stances.
• Frontal engagement.
• The use of the boshiken hand to the throat.
• The use of the hammerfist to the head.
• The forearm contact.
• The (very occasional) use of the elbow, albeit largely for deflection at arm's length as opposed to attacking up closer.
• One "hawk chases sparrow" take-down. (I first was taught that by Bobby Campbell 33 years ago.)
• Rare but certainly present "turning the corner" on the opponent. There's a story of Kanbun doing this to a surprise attacker with a spear while in Fuzhou. I never quite understood the story (how Kanbun got on the guy's back) until I learned ushiro ate in aikido, and noticed that the footwork was identical to the tenshin sequence in the Uechi Ryu hojoundo.

what they are doing isn't a million miles away from CQB

Well...

It is sort of close quarters by the strict definition of the term. But it really isn't as close as the types of techniques typically done in Kanbun's kata. For instance,

• The legs are rarely engaged. An occasional kick and knee thrust is done to show the superiority of their hand-slapping sequences to the head. (Note how the person repeatedly "poses" in the kick posture while letting the other guy do his slappy do.) There really are no decent body shots of any kind, or leg technique sequences. Where are the effective knee thrusts? The leg kicks? Joint attacks (with or against the normal movement)?
• Attacking with the elbow is virtually absent. They are close, but not THAT close. They don't really display any "bad breath range" fighting in these sequences.
• Did you see the shiho nage snuck in there? They learned that from the Chinese, Ray?
• There's very little grabbing and grappling. That's disappointing given the amount of time they stay in close. These folks don't appear to have done any floor fight training either. The eye can tell...
• These sequences are all about "the duel." I don't see any evidence of the type of deft movement and efficient shut-down techniques that would be required in many-on-one attack scenarios. But then maybe they're just highlighting one small part of their martial world. And that in itself is telling.
• There are way too many attacks to the frontal bone. Ask any boxer how good those shots are. They get you points, but...

I don't know about all your other issues, Ray. I don't make it a habit of bearing others' crosses, or fighting strawmen.

As a general comment though... I really like the way they learn to flow. And FWIW, Ray, you can't flow like that without core involvement. There is a grammar to their vocabulary of techniques - dictated by whole-body mechanics.

I also like the training on their vertical poles with the horizontal pad in the middle. Cool beans! But I sure would like to see them use their legs a bit more...

- Bill

[jorvik]

Quote
"I don't know about all your other issues, Ray. I don't make it a habit of bearing others' crosses, or fighting strawmen. "

haven't got any Bill....I do what I do, I think what I think and I say what I mean....I like Mantis, I would love to do some.in fact I nearly did and with this group.but I missed out .my comments were about the "Slappy" comment..I've heard that one before .from people who can't generate power close in or who don't understand the difference between bare knuckles and padded gloves...as you know I love boxing but there are differences between what the Chinese do and what other cultures do..some folks really don't understand culture..in China people were thinking about punching a couple of thousand years ago.and right up to the modern day

[chalkdust]

Does training like this give u the understanding to muster up finishing blows?


This reminds me of how I imagine a wing chuner to fight as well.

My problem with all of this, Shotokan, uechi, capoeira, is the lack of grappling. I see the beginning of grappling i nall these arts, but not as much as inn wing chun or a specifically grappling art. As for shotokan and maybe uechi, I dont see as much circular technique altohugh more in uechi and hinto of it father along in shotokan.

I am sure I need to learn aikido or judo or BJJ or japanese jiu juitsu one day.

wing chun seemed like it had "everything"

But the super power of shotokan and uechi I havnt seen in any of this either, maybe in long fist or nan quon kung fu?

By the way I am a beginer so most of this on my part is babble. I thought this was extremely exciting and a cool video!

ITs all wonderful though, just amazing!

[Jason Rees]

Does training like this give u the understanding to muster up finishing blows?

Depending on where they hit the head, the number of times they are hitting it is 9/10x going to get them to the ground. A solid kick can end it from there.

If you're lucky, they're incompetent, and you got the drop on them.

My problem with all of this, Shotokan, uechi, capoeira, is the lack of grappling.

In my Uechi classes we were taught grappling applications to everything, right along with the stand-up, and there really wasn't much difference between the two due to the very close range.

I can't comment on capoeira except that I worked out with a capoeirist (or whatever you guys call yourselves no disrespect intended), and he had no desire to grapple... his theory being that he could keep you far enough away that you wouldn't get a chance to take him down. Since we never went full-speed in sparring, I never really got a chance to test his theory.

I know next to nothing on Shotokan, so I won't comment there. I just don't see a lack of grappling in a solid Uechi education.

I am sure I need to learn aikido or judo or BJJ or japanese jiu juitsu one day. wing chun seemed like it had "everything"

Nothing wrong with learning a soft style to compliment what you have, once you have a solid base. Aikido is more limited, so I'd go with a jujitsu of some sort instead. If wing chun had everything, would we have a Jeet Kune Do? Nothing has everything, and you can learn alot from many 'styles.' In the end, a punch is just a punch, and a kick is just a kick.

First learn to do it right, then work on power. Power can be generated in lots of ways, and the way they're doing it in those mantis videos is with speed. Speed is how Bruce Lee made his tiny frame produce such force. It's not a bad way to go, once you've got your essentials down. If you don't have a solid base though, it turns into the 'slappy do' Bill talks about.

[MikeK]

some folks really don't understand culture..in China people were thinking about punching a couple of thousand years ago.and right up to the modern day

Thermae boxer Massimo

Guess them Chinese fellows were unique.

Note: Image changed to hyperlink by moderator due to size and page formatting issues.
Bill

[MikeK]

Well...

It is sort of close quarters by the strict definition of the term. But it really isn't as close as the types of techniques typically done in Kanbun's kata.

And I bet my kata techniques are even closer than Kanbun's.

Jeeze, you guys and your close quarters. CQB is more than something you measure with a ruler. Opponents move around, opponents use weapons, opponents pop up in different environments, opponents often don't cooperate with our killer CQB moves. The fight happens at whatever range the fight happens.

folks like to pay lip service to thing like the "Interview stage" etc but never really bring that into their art or study an art which starts in that range

Which art starts in the "interview stage" range, and how many feet or meters is interview stage range?

BTW, I liked a lot of the SPM techniques but that was slappy, slappy ship. I'd think a better test of their stuff would be to 1) have the other guy actually move aggressively and resist just a little, and 2) put of some gear and actually hit each other. Heck I'd settle for seeing them make an 80 pound heavy bag move.

[Jason Rees]

Guess them Chinese fellows were unique.

[Bill Glasheen]

Jeeze, you guys and your close quarters. CQB is more than something you measure with a ruler. Opponents move around, opponents use weapons, opponents pop up in different environments, opponents often don't cooperate with our killer CQB moves. The fight happens at whatever range the fight happens.

You argue best when you argue my point, Mike.

(Jeeze... I didn't think I was being that subtle... )

- Bill

[jorvik]

Quote
"Guess them Chinese fellows were unique. "

Well they are in that their culture is unique..............but what I said is that people don't understand culture, especially when it's not their own. They tend to study alien cultures using their own criteria from their own culture.that's why a lot if folks don't understand Islam ( not that I do .but I accept that it's out of my experience range)

Quote
Does training like this give u the understanding to muster up finishing blows?


This reminds me of how I imagine a wing chuner to fight as well.
some more clips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAiAnMFt ... PL&index=2

unfortunately U-tube is playing up and this is the only clip that it would let me post

firstly there is a clip where they break concrete etc............so they have the finishing power.................how they generate and use it is a different question

I am a beginner at wing chun .but I would say that.....a lot of southern gung fu operates in that range, and all Gung fu uses sensitivity drills.so it is not surprising that it looks similar.........However , Chinese arts can look similar but their theories can be world's apart.....really to be honest I don#t know, but maybe Wing-chun might appear a bit more linear

SOME MORE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ede9OzH1 ... re=related

took me a while to find it ..but there ya go POWER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlInJFHw5mQ

[Glenn]

There are two different styles of Praying Mantis, Northern and Southern, which are completely unrelated to each other in spite of the similar name. Southern Praying Mantis, demonstrated in the link that starts this thread, is a southern Chinese style, like Uechi Ryu, Wing Chun, etc, and like those has a very short stance and operates at close quarters. A unique feature of Southern Praying Mantis is its heavy use of what the Chinese call the Phoenix-Eye Fist but we call the Shoken. As such it is considered a close cousin to Bak Mei and Chuka Shaolin, and these three are probably cousins of Uechi Ryu.

Bill, take a look at 4:16-4:20 in that first clip...the opening to Sanseiryu?

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill, take a look at 4:16-4:20 in that first clip...the opening to Sanseiryu?

It is a clever way to set up a "stupid trap." But it isn't the watari uke of Sanseiryu.

What I do see (and you have to squint to see it) is the same mechanics as an elbow/backfist sequence in Uechi Seisan and Sanseiryu. The right arm comes over their left in a kind of "receiving elbow" posture, and the left hand pulls their right over top. And whup, there it is! That motion is the same as throwing your right elbow into your left hand. Once there, reorienting the right arm to an open backhand (like the Uechi backfist) completes the trap.

Why do I see that? The move is in Wing Chun's Siu Nim Tao (little idea) form. It feels exactly like the Uechi elbow and backfist, except your right hand stays open (like a supinated nukite) on the second technique.

Call it a "yin" interpretation of the Uechi Ryu elbow. Okinawans only see elbow techniques as strikes or thrusts (yang). They miss out on a lot of the "receiving" (uke) or sticky-hand (chi sao) elbows that are prevalent in Fuzhou styles. Whether intended or not in Kanbun's style, it's easy to make the bridge since the mechanics are the same.

- Bill

[jorvik]

Quote
"Why do I see that? The move is in Wing Chun's Siu Nim Tao (little idea) form. It feels exactly like the Uechi elbow and backfist, except your right hand stays open (like a supinated nukite) on the second technique. "don't know where you see that one Bill
.................although in all fairness I have been on the recieving end of that ( from a hung Gar guy) when I've done Chi Sao....superficially the techniques may appear the same, but I know from speaking to my sifu that thinking like this can cause problems.he does Wing-Chun and Yi Chuan, and he says that some techniques look the same in both systems but are poles apart ......FYI when I came to my current sifu I knew SLT .both the ip man version and the Leung Ting ( Ving-tsun ) version .and yet I had to start at the beginning and learn the form all over again......from the beginning
....this is the Traditional way.and it had me spitting feathers for a couple of months.but I've learned more now....................the hardest thing is just to let go ..to be prepared to let everything that you learned before.............just go......................doing this I can't say that I know more, but I am aware of infinitely more possibilities.and it was worth it

[Bill Glasheen]

I know from speaking to my sifu that thinking like this can cause problems.

It does indeed, Ray. It causes a closed mind all sorts of problems.

See what no one else sees. See what everyone chooses not to see... out of fear, conformity or laziness. See the whole world anew each day!

- Bill