Judo versus Karate

[Van Canna]

That's the idea. There are cops and the way they train and there are Karate people and the way they train.

[chalkdust]

How are cops and millitary people trained?

[Bill Glasheen]

How are cops and millitary people trained?

Let us count the ways...

For what it's worth, the Marines now have their own martial art (MCMAP), based partially on the Uechi style. It goes much broader than that though, and covers the entire range of the force continuum.

Training of both LEOs and the military is evolving. There's been quite a bit written about it. We could go on and on...

- Bill

[Jason Rees]

How are cops and millitary people trained?

Outside of the marines, military police, and special forces, they really aren't, though the Army is looking into a martial arts program. The Air Force unoficially adopted Judo about 20 years ago, but that just means you can usually find a judo club at an Air Force base these days.

[Bill Glasheen]

The Air Force unoficially adopted Judo about 20 years ago, but that just means you can usually find a judo club at an Air Force base these days.

My second cousin has taught jiujitsu while in the Air Force. I accidentally bumped into him when he visited this forum.

- Bill

[Jason Rees]

My second cousin has taught jiujitsu while in the Air Force. I accidentally bumped into him when he visited this forum.

- Bill

Was he teaching it as part of an AF program, or for Security Forces, or just on the side?

[Bill Glasheen]

Was he teaching it as part of an AF program, or for Security Forces, or just on the side?

My understanding is that it was on the side.

He has temporarily dropped out of sight for a bit. I haven't been able to Google his website since he started a tour of duty. But hopefully he'll pop up again soon.

- Bill

[f.Channell]

I think Judo was adopted by the air force more like 50-60 years ago.
Phil Porter was involved in that. I'll have to check his book.

F.

[Jason Rees]

I think Judo was adopted by the air force more like 50-60 years ago.
Phil Porter was involved in that. I'll have to check his book.

F.

That is entirely possible.

[robb buckland]

When we "played "in the pit at Ft Benning instructors tried to impress opon us the effectiveness of the hip throw in combat ...it played out in the instructors favor 'til they got to the "experienced side of the pit".....

The video we watched at the begining of this thread is a classic example of the tunnel vision a great majority of dojos suffer from. Both stylists were entrenched in dojo science .
Fortunately more of todays instutors have been experimenting with ranges , styles and tactics .Perhaps if this fight were held today both stylists would have learned from the lessons of "the mma generation !"

Neither fighter would survive on the street for long either.!!!

[IJ]

My comments:

1) No threat from the karate guy. Fight over. Done. Before it started. Even if knees or elbows? With his mojo wouldn't have stopped the ogre, just annoyed him, unless he's never been hit before.

2) Pretty slow takedown given the Judo background. Double leg? Today in UFC he'd be on the mat in 2 seconds.

3) Cool attempt with the leg lock armbar from side control, however, poor strategy. Always try to use a double attack. He just kept trying his one trick over and over. Doesn't work. Then he mounted and...

4) He sits on the guy for an hour. Here's a guy who didn't think about learning to strike, and who doesn't do much ground work, either. Not working toward anything, basically stalling, and eventually he sinks in an Ezekiel strangle (throat crush, not really a choke as shown). Tap was for discomfort not for impeding loss of consciousness.

And what was done in response?

5) No headlock escape attempts from karate. These are actually pretty easy, and he coulda swum out the back and possibly taken side control or even mount or back from it. But totally clueless.

6) No mount defense. Great!

7) No upa. He has no idea how to escape the mount. Unless you're taught, you don't know--but I have classmates with 30-100 pounds on me who won't mount because they know I'll bump em off and transition to their guard. They prefer side control where they can pin more securely.

8) I seriously think I woulda submitted the karate guy a lot faster. He's got no defense and instead of hugging him you punch the face, either for KO or tap, or he raises his arms for defense and you can very easily take one for an armbar, americana, arm triangle, kimura... its kid in a candy store stuff. Heck, he made the mistake of wearing the gi in MMA and as a result a simple collar choke is available.

9) This is an ancient UFC. I think it's #1 or 2. They just didn't know. Karate with a sparring keep your distance mindset vs grappler = toast; BJJ woulda been faster.

[Van Canna]

Agree with your post 100% Ian.

[mhosea]

9) This is an ancient UFC. I think it's #1 or 2. They just didn't know.

Not ancient enough. Actually UFC 7, quarterfinals. They should have known, although at this point in time maybe karate folks were still unconvinced? However, two things that really "struck" me as being un-karate-like about Parker's performance were the ineffectual, repeated right-hand rabbit punches coupled with the fact that Parker took his own left hand out of the fight by grabbing Pardoel's right forearm while Pardoel was lumbering in. Pardoel was open to left punch punches to the floating ribs and elsewhere, and I think Parker had sufficient time and balance left to deliver something, but for some strange reason he chose to flail uselessly with his right and grab with his left. I don't know if it would have turned out any different, but at least Pardoel might have left with a bruise. In another forum somebody said that Parker, who I think is a Goju Ryu guy, had some intention of using pressure points, so maybe he was looking for the off button on the back of Pardoel's neck (like Lt. Commander Data had in Star Trek the Next Generation).

[IJ]

Wow, 7? Go figure. I do not believe the karate guy coulda stopped the stocky guy even if he had a free strike to the side, and he certainly wasn't going to get that chance. He was on the defensive and no solid strike was forthcoming. I've only seen one KO by body shot that I can remember in UFC, and that was Melvin Guilard vs Out of Shape Grappler. MG is quite an athlete but he doesn't have a good submissions background, and as such he was taken out by guillotine in 10 seconds in a headliner bout, and by Neer after he punched a 6 inch gash in his forehead. In the bout I'm referring to, MG was taken down, offered no mount defense, and would have been submitted had the round not ended. In round two OSG (I can't remember his name) was out of gas, couldn't close the distance, and was afraid of getting punched in the face (although he'd already been hurt by a body shot a minute before). MG saw him raise his hands, he was gasping for air, and he gave him about the most loaded punch you will ever see, right to the solar plexus. OSG went down immediately. That's something you can to as the stronger puncher to a weakened foe on the defensive who hasn't even tightened their gut. There was also that devastating back kick to the liver by David Loiseau (sp?)--not a dissimilar bout between a fit and ferocious striker who held off submission attempts by a less fit and aggressive grappler and later half killed him.

Going for GB20 does make some sense, but it's supposed to be "poison on the arrow" not, "poison on your nerf dart," and it looks like that was a backup plan after he lost his range. It may also work better when your opponent isn't a volunteer who's been told to expect to fall down on the mat you laid beside him

[mhosea]

I do not believe the karate guy coulda stopped the stocky guy even if he had a free strike to the side, and he certainly wasn't going to get that chance. He was on the defensive and no solid strike was forthcoming. I've only seen one KO by body shot that I can remember in UFC, and that was Melvin Guilard vs Out of Shape Grappler.

I don't think he would have stopped him, either, but I spent a lot of time watching the 4 seconds from :26 to :30. It looked to me like Parker chose, probably instinctively, to lock up with Pardoel at :27, left hand on Pardoel's right forearm and right arm around Pardoel's back, before trying those "nerf darts". I just thought both choices were weird for a striker, that's all.