Southern Praying Mantis video

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:22 pm

Ok bill .CMA have a focus , a method..they don't just snatch techiques out of the air and fit them into irrelevant "kata"

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:57 am

jorvik wrote:
they don't just snatch techiques out of the air and fit them into irrelevant "kata"

The strawman strikes again.

I know many martial arts teachers with bad training, tiny brains, and insecurity streaks a mile wide who are very narrow in their thinking and interpretations.

"No, no, you can't possibly bring that technique into the (insert name here) style. It is banned, because.... I say so!!!!"

I feel very sorry for such people. Of course *you* aren't such a person, Ray.

-------------------------------------

By the way, Glenn and I were having a conversation about a sequence and its relevance to the Uechi style. Why are you chiming in? Did I miss out on the mention of your Uechi Ryu credentials? Did I miss out where you were working with Bob Campbell, Larry Tan, and George Mattson on the interrelationship of southern Chinese martial arts?[1, 2] If I did, I am *so* sorry.

- Bill

1) Mattson, George: Uechiryu Karatedo.

2) Tan, Lawrence: Uechi Ryu - An Okinawan Cousin of Kung Fu. Inside Kung Fu, 1976.

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:30 am

I don't think it's a strawman at all.
If people are going to draw a line to Southern CMA then don't be surprised when those who are learning them chime in.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:00 am

MikeK wrote:
I don't think it's a strawman at all.
If people are going to draw a line to Southern CMA then don't be surprised when those who are learning them chime in.

On the contrary, Mike...

jorvik wrote:
they don't just snatch techiques out of the air and fit them into irrelevant "kata"

That was a classic strawman statement.

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern:

1. Topic A is under discussion.

2. Topic B is introduced under guise of being equivalent to topic A.

Topic B is usually a distorted version of A.

3. A participant (usually the one who introduced B) attacks B, as if it were A.

And it was a predictable Ray smartass comment. (Like we're supposed to think his "LOL" smilie wasn't meant to be mocking.)

Furthermore, Glenn and I were having a discussion. This wasn't about Ray.

I have studied both Wing Chun and Uechi Ryu, and have worked with Bob Campbell on Uechi and myriad southern Chinese martial arts. I have also worked with Larry Tan on both Uechi Ryu and myriad Chinese martial arts.

I also provided references, Mike. Do you know why my references are relevant?

Are you aware that George has a dozen or so pages of Bobby Campbell doing southern Chinese martial arts applications in his book Uechiryu Karatedo? Bobby by the way is 8th degree in Uechi Ryu, and once trained a national weapons champion in a CMA form (butterfly swords).
Have you read the article I cited by Larry Tan? Larry has a dan rank in Uechi Ryu, and has taught many Chinese martial arts. He is published in CMA, and is both an expert in classical CMA and a choreographer. I first started working with Larry Tan in 1978 in New York, and have subsequently worked with him at several George Mattson camps.

If Ray can prove to me that he has taught Uechi Ryu, then I'll listen. I'm betting he hasn't even taught either Wing Chun or southern mantis. (I have at least taught the first Wing Chun form.) Otherwise it's just one more example of him being a contrary obstructionist when he doesn't know what he's talking about. This is particularly annoying given that the exchange didn't even involve him.

I don't have any patience for Ray's stupid statements - particularly when it's a repeating pattern. He's already been banned from other Forums on this website due to his behavior. No mystery there...

- Bill

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:23 pm

Well....the comment of Ray about 'irrelevant Kata' is pretty lame. Even WC, which he has begun to study, has katas...wonder why....

And as to irrelevant kata...in a way it is like how many styles to study.

Tomoyose sensei tells the story, most are familiar with...

Once, in mixed martial artists company, he performed one of the Uechi 'big three' with such power and speed that some jealous 'master' approached him and asked: "how many katas do you know? I know 27 of them"

Tommy-san replied "I only know three" and smiled.

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:57 pm

Bill Glasheen wrote:I have studied both Wing Chun and Uechi Ryu, and have worked with Bob Campbell on Uechi and myriad southern Chinese martial arts. I have also worked with Larry Tan on both Uechi Ryu and myriad Chinese martial arts.

I didn't know you studied Wing Chun. Who did you study with and for how long?

Bill Glasheen wrote:If Ray can prove to me that he has taught Uechi Ryu, then I'll listen. I'm betting he hasn't even taught either Wing Chun or southern mantis. (I have at least taught the first Wing Chun form.) Otherwise it's just one more example of him being a contrary obstructionist when he doesn't know what he's talking about. This is particularly annoying given that the exchange didn't even involve him.

I think it does involve him Bill, as he is mentioned several times at the very top of this thread. If you call forth the devil and he shows then don't be surprised.

I also don't understand the stipulation about teaching one form. I've once taught Kanshu to someone, does that mean I can now pontificate on all things Uechi?

So far I haven't really seen bad behavior by Ray, though I'd like to see him clarify the irrelevant kata comment. Does he mean coming up with applications that may not have to do with a movement in a kata or something else?

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:37 pm

How do we define 'irrelevant kata' vs. 'relevant kata' and who's to do it

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:53 pm

MikeK wrote:
I didn't know you studied Wing Chun. Who did you study with and for how long?

I've studied Wing Chun on and off with countless instructors, books, and video aids since 1976. I've avoided most formal school training since politics in Wing Chun (in Virginia and elsewhere) make Uechi politics look tame in comparison. The mixed martial artists (like Bobby and Larry) seem to be talented enough to rise above the BS and learn what they need.

As with my Goju training (which brought me to nidan), I've bartered my Wing Chun instruction for Uechi instruction. The exception to that rule however would be Larry Tan, whose instructional material I bought outright.

Virtually all my Wing Chun training has revolved around the "little idea" form, chi sao, and footwork.

All of this subsequently helped me gravitate to working with Raffi, whose specialty is JKD and Filipino martial arts. Anyone who knows the history of Bruce Lee's instruction (with Yip Man and Dan Inosanto) and subsequent martial evolution would understand how natural that progression is.

I'm going to avoid commenting on what doesn't appear to be obvious to you, Mike. This is nothing new.

Bill

P.S. As a side note, here is one of Larry Tan's recent projects. See The Universal Form. A Wing Chun related project can be found here at Wing Chun - The Science of In-Fighting. The guy is nothing short of a martial genius. I never had any problem finding the link to Uechi Ryu since we both are dans in the style. I have more literature on WCQ, but I thought I'd mention Larry since he and Bobby make it easy to erase the boundaries between "styles."

chalkdust · Post by **chalkdust** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:22 pm

Bill, dont u think the forward energy, and energy release in the limbs, upper and lower, the centerline concepts and the joint and partner work in ch sau and sticky hands is quite excelelnt. Does karate have an equivalent training method to wing chuns excercises?

karaTE definitely has the shifting that wing chun had.

well I never got too far in wing chun. The long pole, wooden dummy and butterfly knives looked dang cool. And I heard that u learn advanced grappling as an indoor student!

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:33 pm

chalkdust wrote:
Bill, dont u think the forward energy, and energy release in the limbs, upper and lower, the centerline concepts and the joint and partner work in ch sau and sticky hands is quite excelelnt.

They are. I took my Wing Chun experience and used it to choreograph partner exercises with the Uechi hojoundo. I wanted to emphasize concepts that the Okinawans hadn't in much of the yakusoku kumite.

chalkdust wrote:
Does karate have an equivalent training method to wing chuns excercises?

Not so much. But the sticky hands training and Okinawa tegumi operate on many of the inside-fighting principles. Traditional Okinawan karate kata have many grapping and inside fighting movements in them, but they've been de-emphasized while many focus on sport karate.

- Bill

chef · Post by **chef** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:06 pm

I don't have any patience for Ray's stupid statements - particularly when it's a repeating pattern. He's already been banned from other Forums on this website due to his behavior. No mystery there...

I'm going to avoid commenting on what doesn't appear to be obvious to you, Mike.

That's pretty harsh on Ray, Bill. I think Ray has been pretty gentlemanly.

Mike is a pretty sharp guy...ouch to that.

You surprise me.

IMHO,
Vicki

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:23 pm

chef wrote:
That's pretty harsh on Ray, Bill. You surprise me. I think Ray has been pretty gentlemanly.

You only see what I don't delete.

- Bill

chef · Post by **chef** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:28 pm

My 'ouch' still stands. We will have to agree to disagree, Bill.
Vicki

chef · Post by **chef** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:41 pm

I didn't say you were the bad guy. I disagreed with how you handled it.

I address the behaviour, not the person. I have always expected good things of you. Can I not be honest?

Vicki

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:46 pm

chef wrote:
My 'ouch' still stands. We will have to agree to disagree, Bill.
Vicki

If certain unmentioned individuals would take the same philosophy, we wouldn't be wasting ALL of page 2 in this thread on nothing. For some reason, it keeps Ray awake at night knowing that I can make connections between styles. That's not my problem; it is his. A wiser man would leave it alone. Not Ray. And he can't take the first hint to let sleeping dogs lie. The dialogue eventually degenerates. Next time I'll forward you what gets deleted. (I just deleted some posts a few days ago. But it keeps on happening.)

Some of us who have been moderating for years see the bad moon coming before it has risen. Certain patterns of behavior are fairly predictable. In such cases, preemption is the wisest path.

It's my job to keep discussions on track. If others think I am the bad guy, so be it.

- Bill