Southern Praying Mantis video

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill, take a look at 4:16-4:20 in that first clip...the opening to Sanseiryu?

Would anyone else care to bring the discussion back on track? I related what I saw and why I have no problem executing those mechanics. Perhaps others see something different. If so, go for it!

- Bill

[Shana Moore]

With all due respect, I have to agree with Vickie on this one. Perhaps you are doing yourself a disservice in your preemptive strikes... as what is left makes it look like you simply tear into anyone who disagrees with you,without truly sifting out any worth first. You are better than that. Yes Ray has HAD a tendency to style bash, but I've only seen curiousity and a desire to link things,recently..and you slamming him for it. How open minded is that? He appears to be trying to do what you say he can't, and he's simply having difficulty being clear and precise...but that's outside your expectation of him...didn't you once tell me to not anticipate another's action..repetition is not always a guarantee of future behaviour..often, but not always...everyone can learn

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill, take a look at 4:16-4:20 in that first clip...the opening to Sanseiryu?

Would anyone else care to bring the discussion back on track? I related what I saw and why I have no problem executing those mechanics. Perhaps others see something different. If so, go for it!

- Bill

[MikeK]

By the way, if you wanted someone to check out Larry Tan you could have just pointed to his blog site. It even has videos.

http://www.tandao.com/videos/

[Bill Glasheen]

That it does, Mike. The original subject though was a sequence in both Uechi and Wing Chun's little idea form.

Have you done any of the hojoundo bunkai, Mike?

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Since the baton has been dropped, I'll pick it up and run a bit further with it.

Let's start with Larry Tan's Tan Dao webpage that Mike K just brought up.

Note: Rearrangement and emphasis done by me to make a point.

Cultivated from [Lawrence Tan's] lifetime of experience with over 45 years of teaching grounded in studying with masters in the US and in Asia and with a background in different martial art media including journalism, fight choreography and as director of the first martial art instructional videos...

What is an Evolving Martial Artist?

Someone who has achieved technical excellence and is concerned that the deeper meaning of the tradition is becoming lost with the popularization of martial arts as sport. The martial arts is more than fighting. TanDao is dedicated to the martial way. It is the vision of martial arts as an integral system that transcends combat and explores the full spectrum of the martial arts: hard, soft and internal.

The TanDao Evolving Martial Artist is a growing community of like minded individuals to explore, practice and share insights into modern and traditional styles. Using the videos in a consistent practice may enhance your core physical skills, of any style and help you discover universal principles and techniques behind all systems.

If any "style Nazis" don't understand where I'm coming from, please come to one of George Mattson's camps (when Larry shows up) and spend some time with this man. Interestingly enough, Larry looks the exact same in his videos on this webpage (copyright 2008) as he looked when I first worked with him circa 1978 in David Finkelstein's school in New York. The agile man in the videos on that webpage is now in his sixties.

I remember having an extended conversation with him after workout (circa 1978, over tea or beer) where he was telling me the cr@p he had gotten from certain Uechi seniors when he first came up for a Uechi Ryu dan exam. Mind you, this was NOT from George; it was from some other individuals who will remain unmentioned, who felt it was a bad, bad thing to crosstrain. Larry was one of those "Kung Fu" guys who potentially was going to bastardize the style. Fortunately there were other capable and influential martial artists in George's Hancock Street group (like Bobby Campbell) who had been walking a similar path and could match up on the floor with all comers - including martial arts sparring champions.

Three decades later, he's a Pied Piper at George's summer camps.

I understood and appreciated his sentiments 3 decades ago. People like Larry, Bobby, and my own instructor (the late Rad Smith) helped inspire my own journey into cross training - well before the day when being a mixed martial artist was cool.

See what no one else sees. See what everyone chooses not to see... out of fear, conformity or laziness. See the whole world anew each day!

- Bill

[MikeK]

That it does, Mike. The original subject though was a sequence in both Uechi and Wing Chun's little idea form.

Have you done any of the hojoundo bunkai, Mike?

- Bill

Just a few times and it was a few years back. I honestly didn't think much of them as it seemed like another attempt to come up with karate drills based on a CMA drill. The problem being that while Chi Sao and Taji's push hands are based on principles, the hojoundo bunkai seemed not to have any or at least any obvious ones that were being taught. I've seen a few karateka, myself included, see something in CMA and try to integrate it without really understanding what was really going on. Kind of like saying arm rubbing is also a sensitivity drill or turning one step sparring into push hands.

I think some of us "style Nazis" do understand where you're coming from, but we just don't agree with you or at least the extent to which you take it. While two very different styles may both wave their hands in the air in a similar manner what could be going on may just be totally different based on their principles, doctrine and emphasis of what's important. Often times there is more going on than just matching a piece of form A with a piece of kata B.

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike

Respectfully...

Did you look at the sequence that Glenn posted?

Bill, take a look at 4:16-4:20 in that first clip...the opening to Sanseiryu?

Would you care to come to class and have me show you the specific hojoundo bunkai I'm talking about, and how it relates to the sequence? Would you care to have me show you where that pattern comes from in both Sil lum tao and Seisan or Sanseiryu?

If not any of this, would you care to share YOUR OWN perception of how the sequence in question works? What is its origin in Fuzhou martial arts - the birthplace of Kanbun's style, Wing Chun, and Southern Mantis?

If none of the above are true, Mike, then please explain this sequence of comments - now going on for a page and a half.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Bill, Wouldn't it be better if you posted videos or at least still photos of you doing these moves? Baseball pictures are nice but it'd also be nice to see you or your students demonstrating your universal concepts.

[MikeK]

I also wonder, do guys in the CMA ever look to karate styles to underdtand their forms?

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill, Wouldn't it be better if you posted videos or at least still photos of you doing these moves? Baseball pictures are nice but it'd also be nice to see you or your students demonstrating your universal concepts.

This is on my wish list of things to do in the near future, Mike.

My video camera (a nice 3 CCD Sony) died about a year ago. I decided to wait until the wide screen cameras became available and reasonably priced before making the next investment. And with jobs/economy being the way they are, that's been put on hold a bit longer.

Yes, this is the best way to do it for all. I did actually have a great videographer in class (Jim) who had done some other work for me that I posted (like the cobra strike interpretation from Seisan, and me doing Kanchin with core involvement). Alas Jim's wife is very sick, so... That's a dead end for now.

Again, in the works, Mike. Good idea that will come to fruition when technology and finances settle.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

I also wonder, do guys in the CMA ever look to karate styles to underdtand their forms?

Technically yes.

I learned a lot of Uechi karate applications from Steven King - the Goju practitioner/instructor and former Green Beret who sought me out for a style exchange. That kind of information exchange is logical though, because Goju and Uechi have a common origin via Sanchin-based methods.

I started in Nippon Shorin Ken and studied that up through brown belt level before going to Uechi. Years later I went back to my old karate forms, and had major epiphanies about what certain techniques were that seemed meaningless when I first learned them. That in turn caused me to reflect back on my Fuzhou-based methods.

A great example is joint fold attacks which manifest themselves in slightly different ways from style to style. Joint fold attacks trigger the dynamic stretch reflex in the flexor muscle group, which causes the structure to buckle at that point. While the technique alone works wonders (mechanically), the reflex action adds poison on the end of the spear (via neuromuscular action). These aren't "legal" in a lot of sport karate, but they are fantastic principles of attack on the street. This is especially true when dealing with folks who are drugged, or are so hyped that they are attacking with gross motor movement. Seeing different ways to do essentially the same thing makes you step back and begin to investigate the fighting principles over the specific techniques.

In general I think the MMA sport fighting has removed the mystique from martial arts, and exposed inferior and bogus methods. Stylists have been learning from each other, and superior methods are rising to the surface.

- Bill

[MikeK]

So really technically no. So far.

But a nice try Bill.

[Bill Glasheen]

So really technically no. So far.

But a nice try Bill.

We disagree.

Re-read what I wrote very carefully. All nuances were included. The bottom line though is that *I* first learned joint fold attacks from Japanese karate kata, and then discovered these techniques in Uechi kata. I subsequently sought them out and found them in other Fuzhou forms.

It would take a chapter to describe which technique (hand blade, foot blade, forearm, shin, etc.) I discovered with which joint fold (elbow, shoulder, hip, knee), whom I learned it from (Hiroshi Hamada, Steven King, Bruce Miller, Mayamiya, Kyohide Shinjo, etc.), what I discovered vs. what I was taught, how I finally pulled the principle together, etc.

If the nuances don't fit your mold, well fine. The truth is that in *my* learning, there was a lot of parallel processing going on. Life doesn't always occur in sequential mode.

- Bill

[MikeK]

I also wonder, do guys in the CMA ever look to karate styles to understand their forms?