Form or Function? Jitsu or Do?

[jorvik]

Animalistic motions in Chinese martial arts are not always as they appear.......in fact it is sometimes hard to know what they are, and which animal they represnt.............look at Tai-Chi it has the Crane and the snake as does Wing-Chun.but unless you have done both styles it is very hard to see any similarities...some Winmg-Chun is so hard that it doesn't appear like Tai-Chi.and I suppose the reverse is true....also consider how many different versions there are of Tai-Chi.chen,Yang, Wu, Hao, Wu-Dang........all of them look different.yet they all have the same animals

[robb buckland]

"Animal like motions stand more chance of working in a real fight ,and those type of motions are more attainable if I train regular on those forms . "

We are however human animals and share functional attributes w/ those classical forms . Western boxing / like fencing was designed for the 'Human Animal' ......

[jorvik]

So was kung-fu.........it's the terminology that is different.you'd have to be pretty foolish to believe that a hunman being could imitate an animal in fighting. It's just a poetic way of talking. Certain techniques are associated with certain animals, some of their stuff is very similar in thought to Western boxing moves

look at this guy bobbing and weaving
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3a6b11 ... re=related

[robb buckland]

"....you'd have to be pretty foolish to believe that a hunman being could imitate an animal in fighting. It's just a poetic way of talking.

When my team was asked to fight in "The World Championships of Kung Fu " at the Chinese Cultural Center in Manhattan. We were told by my instructor that we would fight representing his school / style he told us in no uncertain terms that 'Kung Fu guys cant fight ' , now far be it from me with my very limited experience and shallow wisdom was I to doubt him after all , as far as Gung Fu went he was my Sifu.
We won every division knocking out two of three in the first 30 seconds (that was poetry)....I think I still have the sash I wore that day , Steve Brooks wouldn't wear one !!!!

As time and technology advances so do strategy, tactics , and their training methodologies ..we should celebrate the origins of our art not get shackled by them.


" Sophisticated and subtle fighting secrets are inherent in forms. Deeper understanding reveals that forms are books of knowledge for cataloguing techniques and strategies and for transmitting this knowledge. The flowery movements or structured postures conceal hidden meaning. Many martial artists - traditional as well as modern - are "form illiterate" since the" secret keys" to the codified symbols as a science of movement were only revealed to a select few.

So, you do not need forms for self defense, but forms are intrinsic to high level martial arts as a philosophical and spiritual path that transcends fighting. "

tandao - Master Lawrence Tan

[jorvik]

Quote
"When my team was asked to fight in "The World Championships of Kung Fu " at the Chinese Cultural Center in Manhattan."
I wonder why it was held there? .surely it should have been held somewhere in China?

but, as to kung fu fighting I've seen both sides of that.I've seen Masters get badly beaten in full contact bouts, but ,I know one of the most popular tournemant styles in the UK both for Non-Contact and full contact was Lau-Gar.they won loads in both and Alfie Lewis the world kick boxing champion started off in that style

You can even see some of the weirder Chinese styles holding their own.....................such as Yi-Quan ( in Japan it's called Taikiken)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkC35VbWGvw

As to forms............I can only speak from my own experience.drawing mainly from Tai-Chi and later Wing-Chun, firstly it does very much depend on the quality of instruction that you recieve....secondly forms do not stand on their own..this is a very bad mistake that some people make.you can't just practice a form for 20 years and expect to learn how to fight, answers will not suddenly creep into your head. I've seen a lot of folks who will say this move could mean this, or maybe that you must be a lot more precise than that ..............forms are part of your learning, but other things will interact with it.In wing-Chun there is the wooden dummy and sticking hands practice.in Tai Chi it is pushing hands , and the wooden ball...Yi-Quan also has it's own training methods...............so if you practice forms on their own without these other training methods you will learn nothing It's a bit like boxing, if you just practice the punches e.g. uppercut,hook,jab.but don't use the other practices in the art...you will learn nothing
So really in one sense Easter and Western martial arts aren't that different
it's taken me a lot of looking around and searching to find a teacher who can actually show me the art.I'm on my 6th Wing-Chun teacher now

[robb buckland]

Hey , you gotta know... not one of us believes now or then that was a world championship we were there to fight at Master Tans' request ......



...............Manhattan."
I wonder why it was held there? .surely it should have been held somewhere in China?

I would have to agree....

If I did not have respect for the concepts and methodologies of Gung Fu training I would not have rode the train so many times to NYC in search of "the secrets of these forms ".



"Animal like motions stand more chance of working in a real fight ,and those type of motions are more attainable if I train regular on those forms . "

It is only ultra highly trained practitioners who can make this stuff functional in real combat ..in addition fine motor movment is one of the first things that goes out the window under combat stress conditions ...

Heres some vintage stuff from a UK tv special 'Martial Arts the Real Story' (TLC)[I'm doing the William Shatner 'overactors theater' thing ]LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27jqPjTaAcU

Our task is simply to complete the other half of the Oneness spontaneously.There is nothing to "try" to do in the final stanges ,opponent,self,"techniques",are all spontaneous."Everything simply flows naturally".The true 'art ' is not to accumulate,but the refining and eliminations of all technique & form. A Punch Is Simply A Punch, Respond Like An Echo,Adapt Like A Shadow,Strike Like An Arrow Shot .Totality and freedom of expression towards the ever changing rhythms of the energies or opponent should be the goal of all prctioners .

[jorvik]

Quote
"It is only ultra highly trained practitioners who can make this stuff functional in real combat ..in addition fine motor movment is one of the fist things that goes out the window under combat stress conditions ... "

Well I can look at this a couple ways .from my own perspective, that is.When I started martial arts I had already had lots of fights......and I honestly thought that Martial arts had all the answers .....I quickly grew very disappointed, but my first karate teacher changed his approach to karate after going to a Joe Leiws seminar in the UK....by the time I was training with him he was using boxing type stances and jabs and crosses and I enjoyed that.and it fitted in with what I knew worked......I fought a few people full contact.but the big change for me was when I fought a very large amateur boxer.who absolutely battered me ......then I switched my attention to weapons training and learned some escrima................now I have also been involved in police work for about 20 or so years ,though I'm not a LEO, and I get to read police statements etc....I have access to police computer records.now that to has given me a very different perspective on violence ..............like most people I don't get to work with "real Violence"...which is very different from even MMA...and I say this because lots of folks will watch BJJA ( which I think is great BTW) and think that those skills will equip them for real world violence....IMHO they won't.....if you go to the ground then you'll get kicked to death ........now my current interest is what I think of as Southern Chinese martial arts, I do Wing-Chun, but I would do Mantis as well.the reason is the range, you fight so close in that it is excellent for real world violence.which will happen in a crowded Pub.or against a couple of people........to be honest I do know what works for me, boxing and head butts generally.but as I age I'm less happy about putting myself on the line
Escrima usesw stuff that mixes and crosses over well with Wing-Chun, hubud lubud is not that much different from Sticking hands in some respects.and with Wing-Chun it is quite easy to hold a small knife while you do it. A lot of Wing chun people carry karambits for that reason
imagine doing this with a karambit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY02omAibvw

[robb buckland]

"I switched my attention to weapons training and learned some escrima................"

I very much enjoyed my exposure to that as well and markedly adjusted my attitude and training methods ....great for "flow".

I've trained with Mr Lewis since 1984 and Ive been hit/ beaten up by plenty of "fighters" thats what keeps us searching, right..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5LDdcfAM2s&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi2jzj2C ... re=related

" I cannot qualify one art being better or more valuable than another. It is the integration of these arts; the synergistic whole that creates a value beyond any one or limited approach."

[jorvik]

Funnily enougth those clips you posted, well there is another one that those folks do called "Heavan and Earth 6" which is a two stick drill which I learned years ago, anyhow I was training at a new club and I was doing it wrong there.but from their site I learned that there is another drill called "heaven 6" ..and I was confusing the two

One thing though, sometimes I may sound like I'm disagreeing or even being argumentative when I'm not.it's just the medium i.e the internet......so I'll say this sometimes when you mix different cultures and different martial arts you get two folks saying different things and they are both right.I don't mean US here but
When you do Escrima then you think of a "live" hand to check and control your opponent, that to me is the connection to Wing-Chun , they both want to control, however when you look at Western knife fighting methods like this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKoxYw4JyVM
well he thinks in a totally different way....with a large bowie somebody uses a "live" hand and he'll cut it off ......and that's a problem right through martial arts, the different "truths" in different methods.....so sometime you have to take what you want and run with it, but be aware of the downsides..........also IMHO ( and this is by no means all of the time)..folks in Escrima get a bit too much into drilling, they rely on them too much.............like karate with kata.....now all of these things can work.....or none of them, and that's the problem

[AAAhmed46]

The admonishment "don't change the kata" only works if you understand the jitsu behind the do of an empty-handed form. If the function is unknown then change is inevitable

But even if the function IS known, why not change it if the change it self is better or more versatile. Often the same function is repeated agian and again in many different forms.
Libraries should be expanded right, so why have the same book come up again and again(unless it is really really fundamental, but that could be a totally different discussion)
Kata serves many purpose, one of which is a reference point right:?: Expanding on that is better. Research should be updated, not kept status.
Maybe sometimes, its good to replace it with something different or better.

Styles survive or gain popularity, good reputation because they evolve. Karate has changed, so has Boxing, Muay thai, tai chi, hsing i(infact joseph chen, whom was posted most affectionately here has students who discuss changes done)
Why not uechi-ryu Surely we want to make it better and better.

Now i see lots of counter arguements too. Such as: How do I know im qualified enough to say a change is better worse:?: But then, that is why we have pressure testing and testing a technique against resistance.

PS
Cannot use certain punctuation now because my keyboard is really reacting weird with the computer. On my lap top it was the C button. Weird.

[jorvik]

Quote
"But even if the function IS known, why not change it if the change it self is better or more versatile. Often the same function is repeated agian and again in many different forms. "
Well as you quoted

The admonishment "don't change the kata" only works if you understand the jitsu behind the do of an empty-handed form. If the function is unknown then change is inevitable

IMHO folks only changes things that they don't understand or when they have a small information base to work from...I've seen this with some of the Wing-Chun folks that I've trained with. One of the hardest skills to acquire is the sticking hands ability.with my Sifu he can always answer my questions based on a good understanding of the style....I know of other folks who have changed things around to accomodate a lack of understanding................but there are many variations of Wing-Chun, and they are all Wing-Chun, just done a bit differently.................that is why the Chinese are so keen on knowing your limeage or giving name to a style.Fon Shan Wing-Chun is still Wing-Chun.but it is not the same as Yip Man lineage or the Ving Sun of Leung-Ting...similarly there are many different styles of Tai-Chi.............the thing is to show some integrity and honesty and just give the style a name or lineage.then folks won't get confused..and can judge you honestly

[robb buckland]

"If the function is unknown then change is inevitable ...."


"Why not uechi-ryu Surely we want to make it better and better"
Lets hope we here are not adverse to change .....

From dojo to dojo there is so much varience in interpretation , it's the mines better than yours foolishness that stymies the evolution of all of us !

[AAAhmed46]

Quote
"But even if the function IS known, why not change it if the change it self is better or more versatile. Often the same function is repeated agian and again in many different forms. "
Well as you quoted

The admonishment "don't change the kata" only works if you understand the jitsu behind the do of an empty-handed form. If the function is unknown then change is inevitable

IMHO folks only changes things that they don't understand or when they have a small information base to work from...I've seen this with some of the Wing-Chun folks that I've trained with. One of the hardest skills to acquire is the sticking hands ability.with my Sifu he can always answer my questions based on a good understanding of the style....I know of other folks who have changed things around to accomodate a lack of understanding................but there are many variations of Wing-Chun, and they are all Wing-Chun, just done a bit differently.................that is why the Chinese are so keen on knowing your limeage or giving name to a style.Fon Shan Wing-Chun is still Wing-Chun.but it is not the same as Yip Man lineage or the Ving Sun of Leung-Ting...similarly there are many different styles of Tai-Chi.............the thing is to show some integrity and honesty and just give the style a name or lineage.then folks won't get confused..and can judge you honestly

But look at how sticking varies from style to style, how forms differ style to style, how within the same style or even the same school, forms between one person and another can vary so much(depending if the teacher allows it)
Someone found something worked better for them, why NOT try it? Even if they know and like the 'official' application, they may like something else more.

I was quoteing Dana actually on the whole 'if application is unknown, change is inevitable.'

[jorvik]

Some of the styles are pretty scientific in their appraoch, they adopt a strategy, find principles that embody that strategy and techniques that apply to both.then they run with that.it can be closed minded, but it is usually pretty effective, because you don't have to think, you just react, and you react correctly because it has been drilled into you and you know the counters if you do it incorrectly ...however if you have never seen this approach then you won't understand it, very often this type of style will have taken generations to develop, it is never the province of just one man.......if somebody is good at this approach.....such as Sensei Kuroda then he will strike you down in a second and you will never know how he did it.
If you don't belong to a school like his then you will not understand that type of approach..........you see folks taking a bit of this and a bit of that ....talking about wrestling or weapons etc.but never too specific, and never to detailed that is the common approach.been there ,done that ...and now I've moved on, but not to the point where I think I know that much, but just that I am aware of this different approach.........I think that you would benefit with some Tai-Chi instruction from Joseph Chen........do it for a year ( I always give folks that long )..trust what he says.and after that year see where you are and if your thoughts have changed...if not, move on and reject all that you have been taught...if so.buckle down for the journey and stay with it

[AAAhmed46]

Some of the styles are pretty scientific in their appraoch, they adopt a strategy, find principles that embody that strategy and techniques that apply to both.then they run with that.it can be closed minded, but it is usually pretty effective, because you don't have to think, you just react, and you react correctly because it has been drilled into you and you know the counters if you do it incorrectly ...however if you have never seen this approach then you won't understand it, very often this type of style will have taken generations to develop, it is never the province of just one man.......if somebody is good at this approach.....such as Sensei Kuroda then he will strike you down in a second and you will never know how he did it.
If you don't belong to a school like his then you will not understand that type of approach..........you see folks taking a bit of this and a bit of that ....talking about wrestling or weapons etc.but never too specific, and never to detailed that is the common approach.been there ,done that ...and now I've moved on, but not to the point where I think I know that much, but just that I am aware of this different approach.........I think that you would benefit with some Tai-Chi instruction from Joseph Chen........do it for a year ( I always give folks that long )..trust what he says.and after that year see where you are and if your thoughts have changed...if not, move on and reject all that you have been taught...if so.buckle down for the journey and stay with it

....generations to develop by many individuals, who thought critically and progressively to improve the style to suite the times and situation. The science of the style came about because it was added in, adding something is a change. To see change one has to look critically at a style. critical thinking is a staple of the enlightenment, of the scientific revolution. Why were men of the past allowed to critisize and change a style and not men today? Who is boss, the style or the individuals using the style?

In terms of self defense/personal protection the goal comes before the style, not the other way around. Now historical preservation? Sure, but thats a different goal.


I intend to, but only after ive reached a satisfactory level of technique in everything else im training in. Taking a break due to school, but will go back in.
Still doing karate, going for my black soon. I need to be more relaxed and mobile, more fluid.

Ive got a bit more i want for my Jitts, a more open and dynamic guard, right now i play too closed.

my wrestling ive made a commitment for two years in that, i see so much room for improvement there.

My kickboxing is satisfactory, ive done very well in that regard.

Once ive done these goals, im going on to IMA with joseph. Ive heard alot about him, mostly postive since Wilson karate schools has two of josephs students training there in the black belt classes, and regularly input in martial development of the school. Im sure i can pick up alot from joseph.

Also one of my best friends trained with joseph, and told me of the training and philosophy behind it. I also worked with him a bit. Joseph's martial arts are very pragmatic, well thought out, and sophisticated. Also easily integrated into other systems. Nearly everyone ive met who trained with Joseph and can do some fighting had other martial arts backgrounds that were enhanced by adding some Tai chi spice to it.