ryoute -an interesting viewpoint on Sanchin

[martinclewett]

I don't recommend anything I do as a form of fighting or self defence. My training is not supposed to be an antidote for an attack.

My training is about knowing myself physically and where I fit in (physically) with other people.

If you wish to train in self defence and no holds barred fighting then that's fine as long as it is done properly, i. e. concentrating on what works without necessarily conforming to tradition.

If it happens that some of the movements used in self defence training and no holds barred fighting are similar to traditional kata that's fine. But if you are training for self defence or no holds barred fighting then I believe it is a mistake to limit yourself to traditional kata movements.

I'm sure none of you would do that.

Now in the pursuit of excellence you could claim that you are adapting kata movements in order to get away from this limitation. Which is fine too but you have to accept that you must be travelling further away from the intended use of the kata (if it has one).

If you think that kata had no intended use and are just random collections of movements then that's fine too, but it wouldn't make much sense to try and use them for anything in particular.

Therefore we are left with a conflict within traditional karate, between practical fighting / self defence and traditional kata.

This is where people like myself and Nathan Johnson come in. We put forward theories in an attempt to resolve this conflict. We know that to do this we will have to think outside our traditional boxes. And this is when we start to annoy you.

Obviously there are people like Iain Abernethy who would probably think this conflict is reconcilable and that the only reason it appears to be a conflict (if at all) are the gaps in understanding traditional kata. However from my point of view he (they) still have to adapt kata and therefore as I said before must be travelling further away from their intended use.

Furthermore none of this is a problem unless you really think about it and maybe I think too much. But for better or worse this is my nature; as you can tell by the length of this post.

So after much flailing around trying to make sense out of some perceived conflict I think I have reached a point of stability in that the natural movements of the arts I practise now do not deviate from the movements in traditional kata. I haven't conditioned myself to only use traditional kata movements, I don't need to, that's just the way the arts I practise work best.

Unfortunately in doing this I have to abandon no holds barred fighting and practical self defence but on the other hand I have gained something that is much more emotionally positive. Every time I practise now I am rewarded with a feeling that I can only really describe as being similar to the feeling that you have when you see something beautiful in nature. Go out into the countryside and have a look at some trees, hills, rivers etc. you'll know what I mean.

If all this makes me not a "martial" artist then that's fine because I'd rather enjoy existence than worry about what I would do if that existence was threatened. So if there are any martial artists out there with peaceful inclinations then please contact me and I'll share my understanding freely.

Peace

Martin Clewett

[maxwell ainley]

Hi Martin .

I will go to the end of your post ,I think most on the forums are peaceful in general ,but you will get challenged. By the way what's Nathan doing these days ,its years since I talked with him .

[martinclewett]

I don’t know what he’s doing I haven’t spoken to him either since 2004. Maybe this counts as communication from The Great Karate Myth:

Page 255
“Because they could not make the kata Kusanku work in any direct and practical way, they stated that the kata must be a two armed grappling/dance with a religious background; all in all, quite a jumble of my ideas – spirituality and nobility in kata, cultural relativity, etc. They have however let themselves off the hook in respect of fighting by declaring that their ‘system’ is not for fighting but for dancing and for fun.”

Page 259
“… and bottom of my list, by way of application for antique kata, is the ill-conceived belief that kata is a form (religious) grappling/dancing with little or no practical use. Unfortunately, we can now find such irresponsible, sweeping reductionisms currently being ‘revealed’ in cyberspace, where – in my view- they belong.”

[Bill Glasheen]

Thanks, Max, for helping to get this ball rolling. You're doing a great job.

Martin

Let me start by saying I found it difficult to reconstruct the dialogue completely. Many of the videos referred to have been removed from the Internet. The only thing we have left are some interesting push-hand exercises done with Sanchin principles in mind.

I will next state that you come across (in a near-real-time dialogue) as being sincere, honest (with yourself and others), and open. For example...

I don't recommend anything I do as a form of fighting or self defence. My training is not supposed to be an antidote for an attack.

My training is about knowing myself physically and where I fit in (physically) with other people.

That kind of brutal honesty is refreshing. We like that a lot.

And then there is this...

Furthermore none of this is a problem unless you really think about it and maybe I think too much. But for better or worse this is my nature; as you can tell by the length of this post.

Well... We do that a lot around here. I'll be the first to fess up to that charge. But then I am a researcher by nature and by nurture, so that's what I do. Not all ideas end up panning out, but then that doesn't mean you don't keep trying.

Nothing you've expressed in your post above bothers me. The kind of exploration you and your peers are on is similar to one I have been on as I have dabbled in Goju, Wing Chun, tai chi, and aikido. When you say...

And this is when we start to annoy you.

... well I have to laugh. One of the people on this thread (Ray, a.k.a. jorvik) is a person I ... uh ... "lovingly" call a style Nazi. Meanwhile I am constantly outside the box (by nature and by nurture) picking up ideas like The Borg and then trying to reconcile them with my foundation (the traditional kata).

As far as I am concerned, we are SUPPOSED to be doing this. Folks like Ray think I have it all wrong. But then Ray isn't my instructor so I don't worry about what he (and others) think about my own journey.

Some of the things brought up in this thread (by Jim) may be critical, but then Jim has his own Wing Chun purist ideas. You will annoy him. But don't take it personally.

I say keep doing what you are doing. However in doing so, you will wander into the realm of what we might call martial masturbation. And then this is where our "expert panel" (joke) will start challenging you. And you know what? That's a good thing.

Finally... If anything, I say don't make excuses for what you are doing. Not for self defense or street fighting? Bullsheet! It's a MARTIAL art. Explore all you want, but allow others around you to help keep it relevant. Otherwise go do dancing or teach karate aerobics (an oxymoron).

There's some good stuff in the push hands exercise. There's also some not-so-good stuff like overly complex movement and fine motor coordination movement. But it's all good when you are engaged in a jiyu exercise. You will wander and you will make mistakes. And I don't have a problem with that, so long as you - as a martial artist - are open to dialogue with your peers. If we like what you are doing (and want to steal it... ), we will indeed challenge you. And that's not altogether a bad thing.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Bill

Finally... If anything, I say don't make excuses for what you are doing. Not for self defense or street fighting? Bullsheet! It's a MARTIAL art. Explore all you want, but allow others around you to help keep it relevant. Otherwise go do dancing or teach karate aerobics (an oxymoron).

I agree. It is a martial art and it is all in the way you put its concepts to work, especially mentally. If a person wishes not to envision any martial applications in its practice, but ‘feel good’ _ ‘spiritual ‘fulfillments’ and ‘at peace’ with oneself and the world…then there are more worthwhile disciplines to be involved with.

And not all martial arts practitioners are ‘preoccupied’ with self defense…it might appear so on certain forums because that is the intended focus of them.

To understand is that Kata practice is but ONE component of any martial art…it must be supplemented by other practiced skills.

Kata is applicable to self defense training because it helps you understand your body and also it gives you a very wide range of techniques that can be applied in many different situations.

Because you don't have an opponent and aren't about to get hit, you have more time to understand habitual attacks and find a proper response.

You can practice kata by yourself; and practicing by yourself improves muscle ‘memory’, which helps you react properly when you don't have time to think about technicalities.

But then _ It is up to us to make those techniques work…every one is different in this critical skill to ‘make things work’…

It is similar in any physical activities…for example in soccer you can go and train and learn a whole bunch of moves and drills under a fine coach…

but if you don’t have the innate ability to make those skills work under the extreme pressures of soccer competition, you will never make it on any team.

Then you will need sparring, as another component_

Sparring competition is applicable to self defense training because, again, it helps you understand your body in action and how you'll react to getting hit.

It gives you more practice with split second decision making and target recognition. [Very important] Without sparring, it's more difficult to judge distance and how to hit a moving target.

Yet another component to practice is adrenalized scenarios that mimic habitual acts of violence, to make you understand how your body will react under the chemical cocktail and the deterioration of fine motor skills.

There is more. It is basically a summation of skills plus your very own genetic capabilities.

[jorvik]

Hi Martin
Quote
This is where people like myself and Nathan Johnson come in. We put forward theories in an attempt to resolve this conflict. We know that to do this we will have to think outside our traditional boxes. And this is when we start to annoy you.

No you have never annoyed me, nor has Nathan.I was enthralled when I heard of Nathans theories.Karate being a Zen exercise, and I admire your honesty to say that you couldn't work a lot of the pushing hands stuff into Sanchin...I wish there was more honesty in the martial arts..................but .being a Wing-Chun practitioner and having done Tai-Chi.I can actually see lots and lots of pushing hands skills in Sanchin ( although they may not be there........... I may be imagining them alll ).but thanks for the honesty
Quote
"well I have to laugh. One of the people on this thread (Ray, a.k.a. jorvik) is a person I ... uh ... "lovingly" call a style Nazi."

Well you can call me what you will .but I have told the tale of the guy who is a blackbelt at Aikido and doesn't know any throws, and the Hao style Tai-Chi guy who doesn't know any applications .......I feel really sorry for these guys, which is why I'm so keen on folks telling exactly what they do................I have done lots of styles, Jiu-Jitsu, Aikido, aiki jutsu. Kuk sul, wing-chun,escrima....now if you ask me how to fight then I'll show you some stuff .but if you ask me to show you Wing-chun then I won't pick up a couple of sticks and show you "heavan 6" or Hubud

[Van Canna]

Well you can call me what you will .but I have told the tale of the guy who is a blackbelt at Aikido and doesn't know any throws, and the Hao style Tai-Chi guy who doesn't know any applications .......I feel really sorry for these guys

So do I for the reasons I have enumerated.

Doing and 'knowing' styles means nothing if a person is genetically inept to make any of them work in open competition and in 'fighting' which is also subject to many definitions.

[jorvik]

Quote
"Doing and 'knowing' styles means nothing if a person is genetically inept to make any of them work in open competition and in 'fighting' which is also subject to many definitions.

Well fighting is fighting, a very big subject.
competition is something else again..
I know two "competition fighters " ( by that I don't mean personnally ).one is what we call a Schitthouse and won't fight outside the "competition" arena.the other killed a guy with one punch in a streetfight ...so take your pick ...as to genetically disposed I would have to disagree with that ( but then again maybe not )
Nature and nurture......if you are born on the wrong side of the tracks then you learn different values about stuff like a "fair fight~"etc...but I know folks who can make the most unlikely techniques work against fiercly resisting opponents.and others who can't punch the skin off a rice pudding.......my sifu now is something else and embodies all the stuff that I like about CMA
I guess it all comes down to the folks that we know and train with.......very difficult subject for the net

[Van Canna]

I was recently reading a message board in which the topic was whether Kata had a place in modern Karate. As you might imagine, there were opinions both for and against. Most of the opinions in favor only focused on the external benefits of Kata, and the ones against tended to focus on the inflexibility and lack of practical application of Kata.

While I agreed with most of the positive comments, even some of the negative ones had a point, but they both missed some essential benefits in the diligent practice of Kata.

In addition to strength and technique, experience is one of the most important factors in a physical confrontation. It is difficult to obtain experience in street fighting while maintaining the ethics of Karate. This is where Kata can fill an essential gap.

As I was taught in Intro to Psychology, strong mental visualizations can create a physical reaction. This is why excessive worriers often experience as much physical stress by worrying about a catastrophe as experiencing one.

The creators of Kata discovered how to use this phenomenon to their advantage. Practicing Kata while tricking their minds into believing they were in a real fight allowed them and their students to attain valuable experience in applying proper form and focus under the mental stress of a real fight without the physical risks. No other form of training can accomplish this.

Self-defense drills also lack some of the benefits of Kata. By facing a set attack, these drills allow us to apply good form in the face of a real attacker. However, with two people involved, safety is always a concern.

Often the attacker will not give a true attack for fear of hurting the defender, and even if they do, the defender must hold back on their defense or risk running out of attackers not to mention friends.

While all these training tools are important and have their place, only Kata allows you to try and "kill" or "maim" your opponent who is trying to "kill" or "maim" you, and to do so with correct form.

Of course, talk is useless unless you're willing to give it a try. If you're serious about getting the full benefit of Kata training, the next time you're training Kata, try this exercise. Go through the form a few times to make sure you're completely familiar with both the form and the bunkai.

The bunkai is essential, or you won't be able to fully visualize the attacks. Next "psych" yourself up. Imagine yourself in a dangerous environment, surrounded by your most feared enemies. Imagine they're threatening your family, girlfriend or whatever you hold dear.

When you really feel their presence, you're ready to begin your Kata.

When going through the Kata, forget about the form, if you've practiced the Kata enough, the form should come naturally. Instead, concentrate on what the attackers are doing and react.

If you mess up a move, forget about it, put that attacker down with whatever technique is appropriate and move on to the next. In this frame of mind, the feeling you're going for is not anger or fear, but a feeling of animal necessity.

By animal necessity I mean the same kind of feeling a predator has towards its prey. A leopard doesn't kill a gazelle because it hates or fears it; the leopard kills because it has to in order to survive.

When you're done, you should feel as if you've been through a real fight. It is said that when the masters used to practice Kata, it was not uncommon for them to develop bruises where they had blocked their opponents.

Karate has a large number of Katas. There are also different bunkai interpretations that can be applied to each technique in those Katas.

This means there are virtually infinite numbers of fight scenarios you can practice. In the end, Kata is an imaginary life or death struggle against multiple opponents, and performed with enough intensity and visualization, your mind won't know the difference.

So, does Kata have a place in modern Karate? I submit that Kata is the soul of Karate. Without Kata, training is not Karate at all, and you can never attain the skills the masters intended.

[Van Canna]

Well fighting is fighting, a very big subject.

Precisely my point. People good at 'fighting' which still needs to be defined...don't need any martial arts styles to be good to put anyone in a pine box.

competition is something else again..

I have explained what competition does to develop attributes in 'fighting' for the average student.

I know two "competition fighters " ( by that I don't mean personnally ).one is what we call a Schitthouse and won't fight outside the "competition" arena.

When you say he won't fight....do you mean he won't defend himself? A big difference...

the other killed a guy with one punch in a streetfight ...so take your pick ...as to genetically disposed I would have to disagree with that ( but then again maybe not )

Precisely. There are people who were born with the ability to kill with one punch. I also explained to you about the genetics situation: Only because a person can practice football drills doesn't mean he is any good at playing on a team.

[Van Canna]

if you are born on the wrong side of the tracks then you learn different values about stuff like a "fair fight~"etc...but I know folks who can make the most unlikely techniques work against fiercly resisting opponents.and others who can't punch the skin off a rice pudding.......

Thanks for continually validating my point.

my sifu now is something else and embodies all the stuff that I like about CMA
I guess it all comes down to the folks that we know and train with......

Your sifu may be all he can be in your eyes and that’s excellent…I am sure he is as good as you say…

But keep in mind that only because we train under an excellent teacher it does not mean we will be automatically touched by a magic wand that makes us great street fighters.

[jorvik]

Quote
"When you say he won't fight....do you mean he won't defend himself? A big difference... "

No it's something different...( I don't know this guy but this is what I've heard )..........If you "Front" him then he wil back down Big style...it's the wordsmithing before a confrontation...some folks have it some don't, some folks can back it up and some guys have a lot of front but can't back it up but get away with it ...............
like a guy says "What are you looking at"
and you say.......some kinda a moronic fkwit .and he backs down .............or maybe he says " you want some?"..and you say.Yeah Bada$$ bring it on, do you like hospital food ...............a lot more to stuff like this than mere fighting.......if you have good front you can scare and intimidate folks.buuuuuuuut doesn't work on a sociopath.....or somebody who knows these games

[Bill Glasheen]

But keep in mind that only because we train under an excellent teacher it does not mean we will be automatically touched by a magic wand that makes us great street fighters.

But... but... My teacher was {insert martial god} so I *must* be good!!!



- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Speaking of dropping names... Seems to me that books have been written about posturing and the (un)willingness to engage in mortal combat. And operant conditioning... and PTSD after the fact...

- Bill

[Van Canna]

No it's something different...( I don't know this guy but this is what I've heard )..........If you "Front" him then he wil back down Big style...it's the wordsmithing before a confrontation...some folks have it some don't, some folks can back it up and some guys have a lot of front but can't back it up but get away with it

Again, thanks for validating my points over and over. When you say ‘front him’ what do you mean? He would be smart not to fall for a ‘front’…unless he needs to defend himself…any fighting can lead to many nasty unintended consequences, as you know...by reading police reports as you do. Any fighting for no good reason can get you or someone else killed, or maimed, or in jail and financially destitute.

This guy is smart for avoiding the ass-holes with a big mouth, playing tough guys.

doesn't work on a sociopath.....or somebody who knows these games

The practice of martial arts in the modern world is all about learning self protection not machismo on the streets and the playing of games.

or maybe he says " you want some?"..and you say.Yeah Bada$$ bring it on, do you like hospital food

LOL….> Yeah Bada$$ bring it on, do you like hospital food <

Saying something like this in Boston’s North end or in Federal Hill, Providence RI…with a predominant Sicilian ‘button men’ population…. Will insure becoming hospital food neatly packaged in cellophane paper.