ryoute -an interesting viewpoint on Sanchin

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:11 am

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/nov/0 ... tings-rise

London gun crime rises as shootings nearly doubleTeenage boys with cheap guns
involved in 'respect shootings' to blame for increase, say experts

They reveal that the number of actual shootings has almost doubled from 123 to 236 in the last six months compared with the same period last year, a rise of 91.8%. Serious firearms offences have risen by 47% across the capital.

Those discharging the firearms and those being shot at are young teenagers involved in "respect shootings" to settle petty disputes with little thought of the consequences, say police and community leaders.

More and more such shootings involve a gunshot to the leg, echoing the punishment attacks meted out in Northern Ireland. Detectives say that pointing a gun at the shin or knee is a deliberate tactic to avoid any chance the victim will die, risking a 30-year mandatory sentence.

Those working at local level in the capital say the number of incidents reported is only a fraction of what is taking place.

More of a reason to be careful about 'honed streetfighting skills' as chances are the tough guy will be shot to pieces.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:13 am

"We are not just dealing with drug turf wars here. We are talking about young teenagers who no longer use their fists to settle disputes. They say, 'I can get access to a gun, why would I not use it?'"

Joanne McCartney, Labour spokeswoman on policing on the London Assembly, said: "It is extremely concerning and what I'd like to see is some more information on the age of the young people involved.

We need to ask whether there has to be a shift in resources and whether the focus which was on knife crime has now to be moved to gun crime."

Part of the increase in firearms offences in north London was caused by a Turkish gang war which led to three fatal shootings as two groups fought for supremacy. But in other areas the explosion of firearms incidents is harder to explain, or to tackle.

"Where you once had a set of gangs in a particular area which you could define, now we are seeing these broken down into further divisions with several smaller groups forming in particular housing estates all with their own rivalries," said Isaac.

Cressida Dick, assistant commissioner specialist crime, admits the figures are disturbing. "The increase in firearms discharges has continued to be a matter of grave concern," she writes in her report to the MPA committee.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:28 am

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/1 ... grass-help

Fourteen-year-olds openly carried guns and the sound of bullets being fired was so common that few bothered to call 999.

This was at the start of 2005, when the Stonebridge estate in Harlesden was the scene of all-out gang warfare, where the network of concrete blocks and walkways provided perfect cover for rival drug crews as police struggled to establish order.

The blood spilled on the north-west London estate that year included that of Jahmall Moore, the 24-year-old father-of-two whose death was the subject of supergrass Darren Mathurin's evidence at the Old Bailey over the last 10 weeks.

But it was not only young men caught up in crack cocaine and the violent repercussions of disputed territory whose murders police had to investigate.

Wholly innocent blood was spilled too, such as that of seven-year-old Toni-Ann Byfield, who was shot at close range in 2004 in nearby Kensal Green in a fallout from the gang war.

A year later, Connie and Lorna Morrison and their stepfather fell victim to a revenge killing by men who were in dispute with their brother.

Lorna's nine-month-old son survived the attack but was found covered in his mother's blood in the family's house on the estate.

Mathurin was brought up among the 1960s concrete towers and began his life of crime there, dealing drugs at 13. It was the sort of place where, the jury were told, "the law of the jungle applies".

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:33 am

As Van keeps pointing out the realities of what's out there , and just what could be lurking around the next corner .in conjunction with Kata practice and its supplements ,lots of folk do have issue's with the whole concept of Kata, thousands have left never to return .
And they will not take on board anything that's said in ref; to Kata no matter how simple or complex its attributes are spelled out .
Each kata offers ,but can't demand, its study ,now I have trained with people who liked to get the Kata period over and get on with sparring or some type of drill ,a observation on this attitude was; they were not studying the Kata really ,and the sparring did not reflect that specific set of Kata's ,quite simply they could not see the principles the kata were imparting .
To me this was a unbalanced situation ,just what was coming through to this situation from kata,well you could have written it down on a postage stamp .
This is why I abandoned that situation ,and got on with the job of studying the Kata because first of all I wanted to fight like that Kata ,or Kata's ,now I encountered a spirit side Kata ,but I knew lurking around that corner was trouble ,so for me it was kata study with fights that I had partly inherited ,and issues with no way out .

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:56 am

Quote
"My policy has always been not to discuss on an open forum any such personal experiences or to even admit having had any.

Such information is subject to subpoena by any prosecutors...should something real nasty happen. "

Well, I agree with that....and I am never specific

.....but when I talk of "streetfighting" I don't mean it in the sense that a lot of people think I do..growing up in a bad area doesn't immediately give you fighting skills, it just makes you more aware of what to look out for, and know how to respond.
As to quoting UK papers..you only get the "truth" that they wish to publish, and which will sell them newspapers......and the UK under New labour is more like a Nazi state with many freedoms lost.there are things that happen which are never published, because people would realise how idiotic Political correctness is

.......as an example Gun crime and knife crime in London could be called "Black" crime if you wanted, because it is predominantly Black teenagers who do it...........now to be fair in my City gun crime is predominantly a white thing, but folks won't address the problem correctly unless they identify it correctly.............also if you don't know the punishment for a crime you can be very misled.in the UK any prison term over 6 years is immediately cut by a third, also only half the sentence is served in prison the rest is "on licence"
so for 6 years imprisonment read 2 years.and that is not including time off for good behaviour.......there is also something called "concurrency" so if you are sentenced to 6 years for robbery, and a further 6 years for assault the two can run concurrently i.e. at the same time.......so in effect you do 2 years

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:09 pm

martinclewett wrote:I don't recommend anything I do as a form of fighting or self defence. My training is not supposed to be an antidote for an attack.

My training is about knowing myself physically and where I fit in (physically) with other people.

If you wish to train in self defence and no holds barred fighting then that's fine as long as it is done properly, i. e. concentrating on what works without necessarily conforming to tradition.

If it happens that some of the movements used in self defence training and no holds barred fighting are similar to traditional kata that's fine. But if you are training for self defence or no holds barred fighting then I believe it is a mistake to limit yourself to traditional kata movements.

I'm sure none of you would do that.

Now in the pursuit of excellence you could claim that you are adapting kata movements in order to get away from this limitation. Which is fine too but you have to accept that you must be travelling further away from the intended use of the kata (if it has one).

If you think that kata had no intended use and are just random collections of movements then that's fine too, but it wouldn't make much sense to try and use them for anything in particular.

Therefore we are left with a conflict within traditional karate, between practical fighting / self defence and traditional kata.

This is where people like myself and Nathan Johnson come in. We put forward theories in an attempt to resolve this conflict. We know that to do this we will have to think outside our traditional boxes. And this is when we start to annoy you.

Obviously there are people like Iain Abernethy who would probably think this conflict is reconcilable and that the only reason it appears to be a conflict (if at all) are the gaps in understanding traditional kata. However from my point of view he (they) still have to adapt kata and therefore as I said before must be travelling further away from their intended use.

Furthermore none of this is a problem unless you really think about it and maybe I think too much. But for better or worse this is my nature; as you can tell by the length of this post.

So after much flailing around trying to make sense out of some perceived conflict I think I have reached a point of stability in that the natural movements of the arts I practise now do not deviate from the movements in traditional kata. I haven't conditioned myself to only use traditional kata movements, I don't need to, that's just the way the arts I practise work best.

Unfortunately in doing this I have to abandon no holds barred fighting and practical self defence but on the other hand I have gained something that is much more emotionally positive. Every time I practise now I am rewarded with a feeling that I can only really describe as being similar to the feeling that you have when you see something beautiful in nature. Go out into the countryside and have a look at some trees, hills, rivers etc. you'll know what I mean.

If all this makes me not a "martial" artist then that's fine because I'd rather enjoy existence than worry about what I would do if that existence was threatened. So if there are any martial artists out there with peaceful inclinations then please contact me and I'll share my understanding freely.

Peace

Martin Clewett

Hello Martin,
Hope you're still peeking in here. I have to say that I found your post close to how I now think. What a difference a year or so makes, though I don't think I have peaceful inclinations.

So good post Martin. Stay well and stay happy.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:52 pm

Well, I agree with that....and I am never specific

From a legal viewpoint it is best not mention any at all or you will come across a ‘macho man’ to a prosecutor…who will then relish the thought of making you ‘specific’ about them in a court of law.
Take from me where my work is all about legal litigation…when it comes to a prosecutor…if the law is in his favor...he will argue it…if the facts are in his favor he will argue them…if both are questionable…he will attack the witness.

As to quoting UK papers..you only get the "truth" that they wish to publish, and which will sell them newspapers..

The point here is that there is gun crime in England along with other crime…and so you can’t go about making any assumptions as to whom will have a gun or whom won’t...when you talk about ‘taking on’ a fuqwit…it seems to me that the guy you call “one is what we call a Schitthouse and won't fight outside the "competition" arena”

Is the smart one not to fall for some ass hole ‘fronting him’ on the streets because he knows well enough he might end up full of bullets. You fight only when there is no other way out so that you can articulate the need for it to a prosecutor.

martinclewett · Post by **martinclewett** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:54 pm

The only thing we have left are some interesting push-hand exercises done with Sanchin principles in mind.

That's Kodo Ryu pushing hands. This is the kind of stuff I abandoned because it requires the preconditioning of both practitioners. I mean, in order to get that Sanchin flavour into their pushing hands they have to condition their reflexes through repeated practices of certain drills that are based off Sanchin itself. Clearly whoever invented Sanchin would not have had the luxury of referring to kata from which to base those drills. I wanted to see if I could put the Sanchin flavour in without referring to a kata. By experimenting with different formats of hand grappling I think I managed to do that. Here is the result:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2vclXGqayA

One person is trying to push the other person out of the inner circle (staying within the hand grappling format). Here is my Sanchin cataloguing the double wrist grab escapes appropriate within this style of hand grappling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43jZaXWT-9Y

So the kata comes from the art not the other way around.

Clearly this hand grappling is not a martial art, at most you can say it is part of a martial art. But you could also say it's part of a spiritual system, it depends how you want to use it.

This hand grappling is like an ingredient; it could be used in many different recipes. So there it is…. sitting on my spice rack along with other flavours of hand grappling. What should I stock my cupboards with? Anything I like really! But if I only stocked my cupboards with things that weren't complimentary to my spices then I would have no call to use those spices, thus negating their existence. So my point is that you can mix in other elements from where ever you like as long as they are complementary.

Me? I'm going down the spiritual path because I find it more interesting.

I agree. It is a martial art and it is all in the way you put its concepts to work, especially mentally. If a person wishes not to envision any martial applications in its practice, but 'feel good' _ 'spiritual 'fulfillments' and 'at peace' with oneself and the world…then there are more worthwhile disciplines to be involved with.

No other discipline is going to bring you into physical contact with your fellow man in quite the same way. Now I do practise seven other 'spiritual' techniques and I consider them to be complementary to this practise and equally worthwhile. I don't think there is one 'spiritual' practise more worthwhile than another because existence itself operates on several levels. What matters is getting the balance right between various different practises.

Peace

Martin Clewett

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:22 pm

Quote
"So the kata comes from the art not the other way around.

Clearly this hand grappling is not a martial art, at most you can say it is part of a martial art. But you could also say it's part of a spiritual system, it depends how you want to use it. "

I must say that I find the Wing-chun version of sticking hands to be very spiritual.and my sifu never emphasises any violent concepts when we train, although the sticking hands can get quite rough

.this is only to test you so that you can remain calm

for what use is calmness if it can't be maintained under pressure.and it must be remembered that Wing-Chun is supposed to be a Buddhist art.........Wing-Chun translates as everlasting springtime, and in the ~Shaolin Temple the monks practiced their Kung -Fu in the "Evergreen Hall".interesting No

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:40 pm

" A good guess is better than a bad measure"

The whole idea of a kata as not yet been dated ,or as it?

Were they created gradually ,or over life times ,what the creator/creators intended ?.

All sorts of things have been handed down ,some times to the few and in modern times the collective

My point is within these situations a practioner will find his own truths ,but he can take a good guess as truth and hang on to it for years ,then find he as to adapt or let go .

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:47 pm

http://www.usadojo.com/biographies/patrick-mccarthy.htm

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:56 pm

This I repost from Rick's forum...think of what you are doing or learning and see if it fits with creating permanent neural pathways to deal with the habitual acts of violence you are likely to find.

36 Habitual Acts of Violence

I am posting this list which come from Patrick Mccarthy.

They are the common street attacks and should be used when training. Theya re a great list to work from in NLD.

36 Habitual Acts of Violence

1. Swinging punches

2. Straight punches

3. Downward strikes

4. Upward strikes

5. Swinging kicks

6. Straight kicks & knee strikes

7. Head-butt/spitting

8. Biting

9. Testicle squeeze

10. Augmented foot/leg trips

11. Single/double-hand hair pull from the front/rear

12. Single/double-hand choke from the front/rear

13. Front neck choke from rear

14. Classical head-lock

15. Front, bent-over, augmented choke (neck-hold)

16. Half/full-nelson

17. Rear over-arm bearhug (& side variation)

18. Rear under-arm bearhug (& side variation)

19. Front over-arm bearhug (& side variation)

20. Front under-arm bearhug (& side variation)

21. Front/rear tackle

22. One-handed wrist grab (same & opposite sides-normal/reversed)

23. Two-handed wrist grabs (normal/reversed)

24. Both wrists seized from the front/rear

25. Both arms seized from the front/rear

26. Single/double shoulder grab from front/rear

27. Arm-lock (behind the back)

28. Front arm-bar (triceps tendon fulcrum up supported by wrist)

29. Side arm-bar (triceps tendon fulcrum down supported by wrist)

30. Single/double lapel grab

31. Single/double-hand shove

32. Garment pulled over the head

33. Seized & impact

34. Single/double leg/ankle grab from the front (side/rear)

35. Ground straddle

36. Attacked (kicked/struck) while down

If you don't work on this stuff...your abilities will always remain questionable to you too.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:06 pm

Then add...attacks by multiple opponents...armed opponents...huge opponents...sociopaths....

Only a partial list...

robb buckland · Post by **robb buckland** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:37 pm

"That's Kodo Ryu pushing hands. This is the kind of stuff I abandoned because it requires the preconditioning of both practitioners. I mean, in order to get that Sanchin flavour "

We call it Sanchin sparring in my seminars and people seem to enjoy and benefit from it regardles wether we include the kata name in the drill or not...

By examining the icons of martial arts history we find the greatest fighters were also kata champions (ie: Joe Lewis ).
Soooo kata may not be the fastest track to fighting excellence , those who abandon it are "penny wise and pound foolish"...

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:39 pm

Finis origine pendet (the end depends on the beginning)

Martial exploration shouldn't be a random walk exercise or Brownian motion. There needs to be a goal in mind. Solutions to McCarthy's 36 HAPV is a good example.

I'm not against the idea of doing field exercises that cause people accidentally to stumble on kata principles. This is an exercise Patrick McCarthy himself likes to engage in. But I'm not surprised that a push-hands exercise - something intended to compliment a base rather than be an end product - is NOT where we start.

One thing that has worked well for me is my barroom brawl exercise. Basically I throw people into the middle of the room and tell them it's every person for themselves. I encourage them NOT to fight fair. That means no pairing off in the crowd; you look for the vulnerable and pounce. The predator mindset is key. We do it slow motion so folks don't get hurt. However I require full extension on all techniques so that this sense of reality can be experienced. Inevitably people work into shallow stances with hands up front, and simple Sanchin stepping, turning, and shifting. Since this one particular exercise so reliably makes people develop those postures (vs. others such as sport karate matches) then I think it says a lot about the intent of the Sanchin kata choreographer(s).

Too often we get fixated on "the duel" when in real life we're often faced with a disadvantage via numbers (a.k.a. a preponderance of force). This makes lengthy, complex encounters unproductive. Simplicity, efficiency, and movement off the line of force are great operating principles which bring us to postures and movements of Sanchin.

Of course once you develop that sound base, you can grow it in any direction(s) you like.

The key here (I believe) is developing a lowest common denominator set of postures and movements that will have the greatest good. If it is ideal for the multiple-attacker scenario, we can adapt it to the duel and we are good to go. Throw in some partner exercises (kotekitae, push-hands, etc.) and we flesh out the skeleton even more.

- Bill

ryoute -an interesting viewpoint on Sanchin

Gun crime in England

Good information on kata

Habitual acts of violence

Fast Track to Fighting Excellence