ryoute -an interesting viewpoint on Sanchin

[robb buckland]

" there's a moderator quietly removing the most pointlessly objectionable posts from the usual suspects..... "

Where is the fun in that ?

[Bill Glasheen]

Where is the fun in that ?

George has banned public stoning, Guantanamo Bay is closing, and Rickrolling isn't fashionable any more. What's a moderator to do?

- Billo

[Bill Glasheen]

So if you are still around, Mr. Clewett...

If you couldn't tell, I think you and your peers are doing some bold exploration. And while you feel it may not have gotten you what you wanted when you first started, in my opinion a different approach can get you where you wanted to be back when the experimentation started. In other words, right idea but try a different path. (I'll quote my previous post if this is helpful.)

And while I applaud (and share) your idea of enjoying the journey and not obsessing on the martial, I think the martial aspect is an important anchor for all that we do.

I'd like to know more about whether you're continuing with the push hands exercises.

- Bill

[mhosea]

Guantanamo Bay is closing

Yeah, I heard something about that awhile back, like almost a year ago, I think. Can't really remember now...

[Bill Glasheen]

Guantanamo Bay is closing

Yeah, I heard something about that awhile back, like almost a year ago, I think. Can't really remember now...

Well the way I figure it, Barry is keeping it around long enough to get a few more movies in...



- Bill

[mhosea]

Well the way I figure it, Barry is keeping it around long enough to get a few more movies in...

Possibly. Maybe we'll get a My Cousin Vinny sequel with Billy and Stan getting picked up by the US Military in Jalalabad while on their way from Uzbekistan to Delhi, India. They get flown to GTMO, then Vinny tries to defend them in a military tribunal, only Vinnie doesn't know anything about military tribunals. See? Works.

OTOH, I was thinking it (closing the GTMO detention center) might be one of the those things that's hard to get done when the other party controls the House or Senate. Oh, wait...

[robb buckland]

"George has banned public stoning"........I cant do it in public or private ; short term memory loss and all.

[martinclewett]

Martin ,

In ref; to a Ryoute mag article I think it was Traditional Karate ,there was a series of shapes that reflected a concept in Ryoute , was there a slight deviation in the shapes ? but they still reflected the given shape ,if you recall this ? can you elaborate .

Max.

The idea was that the mutation of kata over generations of teaching and learning does occur but not to the extent that the kata becomes completely altered. Yes, elements of the kata might become exaggerated but ignoring things like speed and extension of technique kata probably remain fairly well intact; however if someone decided to deliberately alter a kata that would be a different matter.

[Bill Glasheen]

The idea was that the mutation of kata over generations of teaching and learning does occur but not to the extent that the kata becomes completely altered. Yes, elements of the kata might become exaggerated but ignoring things like speed and extension of technique kata probably remain fairly well intact; however if someone decided to deliberately alter a kata that would be a different matter.

This hypothesis - if properly supported - would be an important finding.

We all have debates within our martial communities over "what the original choreographers intended." I personally gravitate to themes that are principles-based. Others go for very literal and/or single applications. To some extent that all depends upon both the kata (Sanchin is quite general; Seisan is a bit more literal) and the practitioner (I'm like The Borg anyhow). But we all like to operate under the assumption that our martial movement is reasonably close to what the author intended. Without that, the value of kata training becomes someone diminished. Not completely lost mind you, but certainly a study of a different nature.

- Bill

[martinclewett]

So if you are still around, Mr. Clewett...

If you couldn't tell, I think you and your peers are doing some bold exploration. And while you feel it may not have gotten you what you wanted when you first started, in my opinion a different approach can get you where you wanted to be back when the experimentation started. In other words, right idea but try a different path. (I'll quote my previous post if this is helpful.)

And while I applaud (and share) your idea of enjoying the journey and not obsessing on the martial, I think the martial aspect is an important anchor for all that we do.

I'd like to know more about whether you're continuing with the push hands exercises.

- Bill

Yes but I wouldn't call it pushing hands I'd call it hand grappling which I believe is one of the possible translations of tegumi. I don't like the term tegumi since it can mean things that I don't practise i.e. wrestling.

I practise four styles of hand grappling. Double Hand Grappling, Concentric Circle Grappling, Triangular and Square Grid Grappling. These are related to Chin Na, Lei Tai, and Plum Blossom Stump training respectively. Double Hand Grappling gives rise to forms with a karate flavour. Concentric Circle Grappling (you've already seen) gives rise to forms with a White Crane flavour. Triangular and Square Grid Grappling gives rise to forms with various animal kung fu flavours.

Here's some references:

DHG Freeplay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVXzrZ4LDUs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA4nefBAXcw

DHG Kata:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOSB-GKbzg8

Grid Grappling Freeplay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJUbMiV3lwA

Grid Grappling Kata:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-1-_Yw1LJw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuHaTfproS8

[martinclewett]

The idea was that the mutation of kata over generations of teaching and learning does occur but not to the extent that the kata becomes completely altered. Yes, elements of the kata might become exaggerated but ignoring things like speed and extension of technique kata probably remain fairly well intact; however if someone decided to deliberately alter a kata that would be a different matter.

This hypothesis - if properly supported - would be an important finding.

We all have debates within our martial communities over "what the original choreographers intended." I personally gravitate to themes that are principles-based. Others go for very literal and/or single applications. To some extent that all depends upon both the kata (Sanchin is quite general; Seisan is a bit more literal) and the practitioner (I'm like The Borg anyhow). But we all like to operate under the assumption that our martial movement is reasonably close to what the author intended. Without that, the value of kata training becomes someone diminished. Not completely lost mind you, but certainly a study of a different nature.

- Bill

It doesn't matter anyway since it's possible to create your own kata; if you haven't already then I thoroughly recommend it. At the end you'll be in the luxurious position of having a kata that you know the exact applications for. N.B. I don't recommend just coping older ones; start from scratch and first principles.

If you have or do I'm always interested to see the results; since they are valuable research into the nature of how form relates to function irrespective of whether they are similar to traditional kata or not.

[Bill Glasheen]

It doesn't matter anyway since it's possible to create your own kata; if you haven't already then I thoroughly recommend it.

Naturally I won't speak for others. But I have - out of necessity. I found a need to teach all the kicks of karate to my students so they would learn to defend against them. Before I knew it, I had a 38 technique form. I made it a dojo requirement to literally several thousand students.

At the end you'll be in the luxurious position of having a kata that you know the exact applications for.

True. However it's worth noting that I constantly tweak the form a bit. The structure remains more or less the same. But I find a need to add this, remove that, adjust something else, etc. And since it's "mine," I don't have to take any cr@p from anyone when I tweak it.

If you have or do I'm always interested to see the results; since they are valuable research into the nature of how form relates to function irrespective of whether they are similar to traditional kata or not.

I believe George put a copy of it somewhere on this website. It has me permanently frozen in time as a younger man.

But again... this was a form designed to fit a specific need. I wasn't trying to solve world peace or anything like that. Form followed function. It is worth saying however that when I teach it, the "how" is as important (if not more so) than the "what." I'm interested in good stances, good movement, and power coming from the core in every kick. There are a few other general principles I emphasize as well. But that's for another thread.

- Bill

[maxwell ainley]

Thanks for your reply Martin ,just arrived back home ,five days away ,and clear snow back up the driveway .