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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:26 am 
Well , I don't remember all the facts about this , but I think that it is only after about 30 acts of violence or even more that the average women reports these to the police, then after this the abuser will approach the abused women and promise that he has changed and that this will never happen again :roll: ................................usually the woman will take him back and you will then have what is called the "honeymoon" phase where he will promise all sorts of things, that he has changed etc that he wants to be forgiven and try to start again, and he will be good for a while....then all the old habits will start to re emerge :cry: ..................and she is back to square 1.
I was offered a job just dealing with domestic abuse victims.and I turned it down, because frankly you just get fed up of taking it all the way to court giving them your all your support, and then at the final hurdle hearing the same old phrases......" I still love him", "he's promised that he will change" "It's a new beginning"........................and cynically, you know that it isn't :cry:
BTW lots of excellent advice given by everyone..Dana is right on the money with her points .that is what we were taught .Shana also........but I would have to say IMHO only about 20% of women follow this advice.the other 80% let it carry on :cry:
It is very hard to influence someone who has invested heavily in their own prefered outcome.................personally I really don't understand it.IMHO you have to accept what's there.......anyways hope it all works out for you.Marsbars :wink:...and that you can move on and get the life that you deserve


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:40 am 
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Very interesting thread.

A few posts have bothered me. I chose not to respond right away, and instead let the thread go on a bit. And now I will respond.

chernon wrote:

You said: "...I'm pretty sure I have my Uechi training to thank for that!"
My automatic dark thought: how could someone with martial arts training (really thinking about the emotional training that comes with martial arts...self-respect, confidence, etc) put up with an abusive relationship, choose an abusing partner, be so casual in stating, "I experienced domestic violence this week."

Wow, that was a wonderfully brutally honest question. And it deserves a response.

Let's start by saying I know Mary very well. I've worked out with her 1-on-1, and have been a friend of hers (on and off) for many years. I'd like to think I'm still a dear friend, although life has caused us to walk different paths recently.

That being said. I get it, chernon. You don't. Hmm... But before I go further, let me tackle this one.
harlan wrote:

A challenge? :lol:

The conundrum is how to acknowledge another's experience without dwelling on our own.

Okaaay... So we have been presented with both a challenge and a conundrum. Fine.

Now what?

I'd like to challenge the challenge. Let's get to a key element of emotional intelligence - our capacity for empathy. I'd like to offer that empathy is difficult to impossible WITHOUT some ability to identify with the experience. So while it is true that proper dialogue that elicits more information from a person you're trying to "interview" involves the conundrum mentioned, it doesn't mean that all conversations are one way. That isn't a very interesting world, is it? And if we're going to understand domestic violence as a GENERAL topic, then throwing myriad experiences on the examination table seems perfectly appropriate.

If I was off to the side "listening" to Mary, well then I engage in my active listening. I know the difference.

That being said...

The reason why I get that a Uechika can be involved in domestic violence is BECAUSE I've been there, done that. Not on the abuser end, but on the abused end.

What, you say!!! How could this be??? Well frankly it's pretty easy. If your martial art is precious to you as an abstract art and you otherwise wish to live a peaceful life, well that damned martial experience can actually handicap you. In my case, some partners I've been in a relationship with pretty much felt I was indestructible. Fine... except that this isn't true. We're ALL vulnerable on many dimensions. And nobody really wants to be in condition red 24/7. It just isn't healthy. An intimate relationship is a place where ideally you can escape from the world and let your guard down.

What, you say!!! Do I really fit the strict definition of abused? Well I looked at the list, and with 2 relationships I hit about half of the dot points.

So FOR ME it's easy to see how this could happen to Mary. She's a tough cookie. But do we really want to live as tough cookies when we are in the confines of our homes? Why shouldn't Mary be allowed time to decompress? To make herself vulnerable (out of trust)? To share personal thoughts? To expose our quirkiness and those things that make us unique?

If you're with a good, loving, and secure person, that trust won't be violated. If you're with a person OF EITHER GENDER who has turmoil within, then that can manifest itself in abuse to those around him/her.

It's really quite easy to get into an abusive relationship. The more loving and trusting we are - both very wonderful qualities - the more vulnerable we are to unsavory types.

More in another post.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:00 am 
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Dana Sheets wrote:

And, while men do experience being on the receiving end of domestic violence, the overwhelming majority of cases involve men hurting women and their children.


Shana wrote:

Bill-You are correct that women are not the only ones that are abused, and I’ve seen several other posts on this site that go into great detail about how men can be “set up” as the instigator in a domestic dispute. That is important to note, but not really the topic here. We’re not discussing setting someone up for the blame as much as how the abused can protect her or himself during and after an abusive instance. These are actually two very different situations.


I was good. I let these two posts go for a while. Had some sleep. Pumped some iron. Kicked some booty in the dojo.

I'm back.

Translation from my perspective? Sorry, Charlie, but your life experiences aren't valid. Now... run along!

I reject that.

For starters... From the American Bar Association.

Quote:
Approximately 1.3 million women and 835,000 men are physically assaulted by an intimate partner annually in the United States.

Now I'm just a simple engineering PhD, but... does a 3 to 2 ratio of females to males imply "overwhelming majority of cases?" I'm thinking.... NOT!

Thank you for posting that, Shana. Facts are wonderful things.

As far as the "setting someone up" thing goes, well...

How many people here have really had the schit beat out of them? I've had it happen often through the years in the dojo. Several places I've trained involved some pretty brutal randori. I value those experiences.

However...

What goes on in a dojo? In randori it involves a situation where I can give what I take.

Now for you women out there, follow with me a bit. What if you were the kind of person who could do great harm? And what if someone you loved struck you once or more than once? As a trained martial artist, it takes every bit of willpower you have to be a "good Christian" and turn the other cheek so to speak. In some cases with the right kind of assault, it's damned near difficult to keep the body from responding "without your permission." That's a state I've been in a few times in my life where the beast within did something that I consciously would never do. And it saved my butt.

But here's the thing. In our world when the authorities are called in a case of domestic violence, it's pretty much assumed that the male is guilty until proven innocent. Dana herself admitted a prejudice that the data do not support. Why should your average LEO think differently?

And if you have a person of either gender who is sadistically abusive (if that isn't redundant), then it's possible to use both psychological and physical abuse against the male, knowing that damned few LEOs will come to his rescue when push comes to shove. Great... gotta take it. And take it. And take it... And if the slightest little bump happens, well then you (the male) are screwed.

Walk a mile in my shoes. That's all I'm saying. In one case I took photos to document. Pictures say more than words ever can.

Moral of the story... don't minimize anyone's abuse. It knows no single gender, race, religious belief, socioeconomic status, or sexual orientation. Abuse is abuse - period.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:08 am 
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And finally...

I'd like to think this is a great opportunity for me to call you and catch up with life, Mary. Vonage after all can be a wonderful thing. ;)

If your phone number has changed, well send me a PM. Otherwise, chat with you soon.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Knocking Doors Down
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:47 am 
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I am relieved by the ongoing dialogue. Break the silence, and knock the societal doors down! The phenomenal humility and strength required to dish-this-kind-of-dirt, by those who have experienced it, amazes me. I really appreciated the specific data--because it was horrifying and eye-opening. In my line of work, I have met both men and women who have been abused. Yet, despite that 3-women-to-2-men ratio, all were women except two. As much as we struggle to empower women, we place a terrible burden of expectations and silence on the men who experience this. Abuse is abuse, and everyone should be heard.

The thing that bothered me the most, (and what spawned my "Dark Thoughts" post) is that this should have been a runaway topic from the moment it appeared, yet 75 views later, it wasn't. Most irritatingly (is that a word?), I didn't feel I had aything to say. It's not that I *didn't* want to say something; it's that I was ever-so-slightly uncomfortable--in a way that made me NOT participate. (akin to looking away perhaps)

WHY? I wanted to know why. I struggled to put words to the vague discomfort. My first feelings were embarrassing to me: she sounds so casual, almost cheerful...I'd hope that this karate training would help a woman (like me) NOT put up with that....how could she? With just a moment of actual thinking, I recognized that this was the kind of *crap* that makes relationship violence so sinister. My reaction was framed in martial arts training because this is a karate forum. Before karate, in my college years, I framed it in a there-must-be-some-reason-why-she-wants-to-stay (about a boss with bruised arms and a series of black eyes).

I DO get it. My real point is to highlight the destruction of non-thinking thoughts. If intelligent, confident, strong, kind people (karateka or otherwise) are vulnerable to abuse as well as stupid gut reactions, then where do we start?

In my opinion, a forum like this is a great beginning. My own gut reaction was humiliating to me. Mary started the bravery; Shana and Bill quickly followed; I'm sure others are reading who may not yet be ready or able to talk. This sort of discussion can knock down doors and let a little light in....and I hope it does. (Truly, it already has.)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:22 pm 
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Statistics shouldn't be the focus of the discussion. The stat cited from the ABA site reports physical assault charges filed against men and women. The statistic did not include charges filed for physical assault/abuse/maltreatment/neglect of children. Children, of both genders, make up an unfortunately large population of "victims of domestic violence." The maltreatment of children is perpetrated by men and women.

The full report is here:
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/183781.pdf

A comprehensive source for statistics related to child abuse and neglect can be found here:
http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/ ... cs/can.cfm

* A recent study of low-income pre-school children in Michigan found that nearly half (46.7 percent) of the children in the study had been exposed to at least one incident of mild or severe violence in the family. Children who had been exposed to violence suffered symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder, such as bed-wetting or nightmares, and were at greater risk than their peers of having allergies, asthma, gastrointestinal problems, headaches and flu.

Sandra Graham-Bermann & Julie Seng, Violence Exposure and Traumatic Stress Symptoms as Additional Predictors of Health Problems in High-Risk Children, 146 J. of Pediatrics 309 (2005).
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

However, no number will ever capture the true nature and personal consequences of any individual's experience with domestic violence, intimidation, abuse, or neglect. Everyone's experience is valid. Whatever form abuse takes is terrible. Abuse is one of those things that just shouldn't happen yet it happens much more regularly that any of us would like to believe.

We are hard wired with physical responses to the emotion of anger. When that is criss-crossed with issued related to insecurity, and often complicated by alcohol, money, or drugs. things get dangerous quickly. And that doesn't even address the emotional damage that is done that leaves no outward bruise or scar.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:25 pm 
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Bill Glasheen wrote:
(Dana and Shana quotes)
I was good. I let these two posts go for a while. Had some sleep. Pumped some iron. Kicked some booty in the dojo.
I'm back.
Translation from my perspective? Sorry, Charlie, but your life experiences aren't valid. Now... run along!
I reject that.
[...]
Moral of the story... don't minimize anyone's abuse. It knows no single gender, race, religious belief, socioeconomic status, or sexual orientation. Abuse is abuse - period.

WOW Bill,
We clearly have an emotional topic where communication is not being clearly conveyed or received.

First, it was NEVER my intent to invalidate your experiences or state that male abuse wasn’t important. If you re-read my posts (I know…quite lengthy, sorry), I think I stated quite clearly that abuse happens to all, and it is never acceptable.

For right or wrong, I read your post as a general example of someone being set up as a fall guy more than your personal experience as a victim of abuse. I took the posts as an argument often presented that male abusers are just misunderstood and misrepresented, which I thought odd from you, but..again, we are talking about experience colouring perception as well as presentation.

It was not clear to me that you were sharing a very personal experience of abuse, but you have since cleared this up in subsequent posts. My bad for not catching that important detail, and possibly your bad for not being as clear in your original comments.

I, for one, truly do appreciate your bringing your experiences to the table, as I have very little experience with male abuse. The one experience I have is a friend, who was abused mentally and physically by his wife, but he is not what you’d call a dominant male, and his experience is much different from yours.

My point was MEANT to state that we are speaking about how to deal with abuse, and not gender differences. The websites I noted have very clear links on signs of male and female abuse, and there are very few differences. As you yourself stated, you hit several of those points on the list…as did I and Mary.

I will now readily admit that gender differences in some cases can be important. As you stated a dominant male will usually be the first suspect in a domestic abuse situation where LEOs are called to action. It’s not fair or right. It simply is what it is.

It also goes back to that public perception that I mentioned. That poor, ignorant woman should not be the face of domestic abuse. It’s not accurate for most women, I would suspect, and it doesn’t reflect the male abused population either. So it really does no one a good turn, and only increases the likelihood of misperception and shame.

I would submit that you were not being shoved from the discussion table, but that we didn’t understand each other’s full viewpoints...based on that “how to identify with the experience” conundrum. We were asking how your comment was relevant, as it appeared to be a diversion of the discussion, but it clearly was not.

Quote:
Abuse is abuse, and everyone should be heard.


I could not have put it better Chernon. Bill, now that **I** understand where you are going, let me say welcome to the table and thanks for the viewpoint. My apologies for any part I played in the misunderstanding. I hope you now realize it was never my intent to do otherwise, but I DO appreciate you clearing up the confusion.

Bill Glasheen wrote:
If you're with a good, loving, and secure person, that trust won't be violated. If you're with a person OF EITHER GENDER who has turmoil within, then that can manifest itself in abuse to those around him/her[…]It's really quite easy to get into an abusive relationship. The more loving and trusting we are - both very wonderful qualities - the more vulnerable we are to unsavory types.


And that is the gist of my final comments as well. A truly loving relationship involves trust and partnership and the ability to relax…it should not involve a red alert 24/7…but as you noted, unsavory types do target well, don’t they?

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 Post subject: Re: Knocking Doors Down
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:54 pm 
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chernon wrote:
The thing that bothered me the most, (and what spawned my "Dark Thoughts" post) is that this should have been a runaway topic from the moment it appeared, yet 75 views later, it wasn't. Most irritatingly (is that a word?), I didn't feel I had aything to say. It's not that I *didn't* want to say something; it's that I was ever-so-slightly uncomfortable--in a way that made me NOT participate. (akin to looking away perhaps)


Chernon, you are not alone…as I noted in my post…and shown by how long it took me to get to the points I made…it’s a hard topic to discuss. I put it down to the shame factor I mentioned, but that’s really only part of the story.

You’re further comments and Ray’s point to the cynicism and frustration that can set in for those that work with or know the abused. It’s so hard to understand why anyone would stay when it’s that bad. Even having BEEN there, it’s still hard for me to understand…go figure!

I know that sounds like I’m taking it lightly, but it’s actually a bit scary and frustrating for me. This is the only way I know to express that bewildering mix of emotions. I can clearly remember rationally looking at leaving at various points in the relationship and trying to figure out how to make it (edit-as in leaving) work. I can also vaguely remember some of the rationalizations and incidents that distracted me from carrying through on that situation. For me, it was a final realization that this wasn’t out of control emotions or accidental outrage (both still not acceptable, but easier to rationalize away). The realization that this was a very calculated and aware abuse on his part finally shook me out of my lethargy and fear of change.

And…it was a tremendous change to my life on so many fronts, and I had a financially secure job and friends I could stay with until I could find and afford a place of my own. It takes a great deal of courage to make that step, in part because it’s “change” that is scary to most people, especially when concerns of shelter and financial security may be very real. It is, however, also…I think…in part to having to admit that your personal beliefs were…in part or full…very wrong…about someone else and how they felt about you, and sometimes about your own image of yourself. It’s a multi-tiered feeling of betrayal, by someone else and yourself...and it hurts. I have to agree with Mary here, I also really hate to give up. I’m a bit stubborn, and I try to believe the best of people. That’s strength and a weakness in this situation. And in the end…leaving…well, it’s a scary step, but a necessary and good one once it’s done and you’ve begun to heal.

chernon wrote:
In my opinion, a forum like this is a great beginning. My own gut reaction was humiliating to me. Mary started the bravery; Shana and Bill quickly followed; I'm sure others are reading who may not yet be ready or able to talk. This sort of discussion can knock down doors and let a little light in....and I hope it does. (Truly, it already has.)

There is no need for humiliation, Chernon. I can appreciate your feelings, but your comments actually point to awareness and a willingness to listen that is not…as common as it should be. That is a good thing. It’s purely human to have thoughts that are…less than we want them to be. It is our actions beyond that, however, that show the person we truly are.

I like that your comments spurred some very good and worthwhile discussions…including nudging me to speak up. Keep knocking down those doors!

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Shana


Last edited by Shana Moore on Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:56 pm 
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Dana Sheets wrote:
However, no number will ever capture the true nature and personal consequences of any individual's experience with domestic violence, intimidation, abuse, or neglect. Everyone's experience is valid. Whatever form abuse takes is terrible. Abuse is one of those things that just shouldn't happen yet it happens much more regularly that any of us would like to believe.

We are hard wired with physical responses to the emotion of anger. When that is criss-crossed with issued related to insecurity, and often complicated by alcohol, money, or drugs. things get dangerous quickly. And that doesn't even address the emotional damage that is done that leaves no outward bruise or scar.


Dana...all I can say is that was eloquent. Thank you.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:34 am 
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Just thinking about a different angle on this issue....

Does anyone think they *chose* to study martial arts as a result of experiencing or witnessing abuse in the past?
and
Is there anyone willing to comment further on how martial arts training empowered you or hindered you in managing an abusive relationship. Some of this has been been introduced; I'd like to invite more discussion. I'd especially like to encourage anyone who hasn't said anything yet, who may be feeling unsure about entering this conversation, to join right in.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:13 pm 
Quote
"Ray’s point to the cynicism and frustration that can set in for those that work with or know the abused. It’s so hard to understand why anyone would stay when it’s that bad. Even having BEEN there, it’s still hard for me to understand…go figure! "

Ok well I won't dwell on the negatives :oops: .but try to offer something positive

Quote
"Does anyone think they *chose* to study martial arts as a result of experiencing or witnessing abuse in the past?
and
Is there anyone willing to comment further on how martial arts training empowered you or hindered you in managing an abusive relationship."


I recently went on a course given by social workers who attended "traumatic events" and their job was to talk to the folks involved and help them
cope with all manner of situations.
One of the things that they told us to do was to draw a tree, and on each branch of that tree to put the name of somebody that we rellied upon, this could be family ,a friend , a dog........next was anybody who relied upon us, then our hobbies the things we liked doing and that could be as simple as sitting in the garden, going to the library.............we were told that this was our support network...something that gets us through the bad times..........now doing Uechi or any other martial art can tick many of those boxes without it ever having to be regarded in the conventional way that martial arts are viewed :wink:
Something as simple as a forum etc


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:04 pm 
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Over the weekend I sat on a panel discussion about women and violence at a University. It was a very interesting discussion.

A few key points shared (sorry I don't have citations)

Fewer than 100 stranger abductions of adult women occur each year. It isn't that more adult women aren't abducted, it is that they are abducted by someone they know.

A very common occurrence among couples experiencing domestic unrest or domestic violence goes like this: One spouse gets a restraining order against the other. Then, in an act of vindictiveness, the first spouse calls the second and invites them over to the house to "make up and get back together." While the second spouse is on the way over, the first spouse calls the police and tells them that they've been threatened by the second spouse who is on the way over. The second spouse gets arrested because they broke their restraining order and goes to jail. The state trooper on the panel stated that he'd seen that scenario go down more times than he could count.

While there are a myriad of public and private sector resources available to women and children who experience domestic violence, there are usually few to zero such resources available to men.

No Internal Review Board (IRB) will approve a study involving the effects of pornography use on relationships because of the expected deleterious effects on the relationship and the mental health of the individual viewing the pornography. Therefore the data on use of pornography is outdated (some of the last studies were completed in 1979), incomplete as only a few studies were conducted, and only involved men.

I'm sure there were other good points that I don't recall at the moment.

-------------------

Then, nearly beyond belief for me, I arrived home Sunday only to receive a good call from a friend of mine who had caught their partner in lie about cheating. The partner proceeded to file a false criminal complaint against my friend with the police alleging destruction of property, abuse, and assault.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:02 pm 
Quote
"While there are a myriad of public and private sector resources available to women and children who experience domestic violence, there are usually few to zero such resources available to men. "

Well that is understandable, because Men seldom experience domestic Violence
So why waste scarce resources on something which isn't a problem?.......and that is also why people like myself who have worked with victims of domestic violence get a little annoyed when the victims back out or don't take it to court, and then a few months down the line after another incident are back asking for help and support...............what I'd like to do is take one of these ungrateful women around a Child's cancer ward..and say something on the lines of we can help these little kids or we can waste public money on things that come to nothing, like your court case........then ask them what we should spend the money on? :evil:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:19 pm 
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I think...male or female, the liklihood of speaking up about the abuse and sticking by it are often low. The stats we posted earlier show it's ROUGHLY 80/20 female/male...so I think it's not comlpetely fair to say we don't devote resources because they aren't needed. I think it'd be far more likely to say resources aren't devoted because of the fear, shame, and public misperception of who are the abused. I mean...the one male abuse case I personally knew of very soon after the fact (Bill, I didn't know you when your situation happened)...this other freind is definately a shy and submissive male, and he was married to a domineering woman. So when he mentioned his abuse years later...many of his freinds just putting as him being....well...the words were unkind but ended in "whipped". If you are already a nervous and shy male...why put up with more abuse by admitting your past?

Ray, working with abuse victims, you should have better facts than that. Yes, male victimization appears to happen less, but it still does happen. I buy the scarce resources but the comment "not a problem". That's not right.

That said...I think the first line of resources should be free... and that's information, friends and family....sadly, abusers often isolate the abused...so it's up to freinds and family to be alert and the individuals to be educated...and then...there's hope.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:55 pm 
Quote
"Ray, working with abuse victims, you should have better facts than that. Yes, male victimization appears to happen less, but it still does happen. I buy the scarce resources but the comment "not a problem". That's not right. "

When you do something as a job of work you don't bother gathering statistics. It's a job of work, it's what I do. In 3 years of doing the job I only know of one male victim who was the victim of a woman, I know of one or two homosexual relationships, where both male and females where abused.
Maybe it's different in other cities and in other countries. I know that in my own country crimes vary dependant upon where you live..as to my comment of it not being a problem you have to ask yourself when does something become a problem? and when does it become such a problem that you are willing to spend taxpayers money on a solution?
unfortunately we live with the cancer of "political correctness" where everything that can be seen as a problem must be solved by somebody else and the people involved take no responsibility for themselves or their lives, and expect the Government to shell out big bucks to solve the problem.
Also remember the saying that " there are lies,Damm lies and statistics"
men and women are different, if a woman wants to injure a man she will do it by demeaning him, telling him he is worthless in the bedroom etc...if he responds with violence then he becomes a statistic, but she never will be

currently the thought seems to be that men and women are equal and therefore the same..I say that they are equal but different


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