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 Post subject: Gang Attack on a train
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 5:29 am 
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http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/horde-o ... 17772.html

You are a martial artist and or might be armed...what would you have done and why.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 3:01 am 
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While it's easy to armchair quaterback, I'm not about to sit there. The people involved are cowards, plain and simple. And I don't care how young they are, it's no excuse. We have the element of surprise on our side. Once the general populace cowers, they, the marauding kids, expect more of the same. This is especially true for the age group of this ilk, they're full of themselves and have no honor. If an authority figure speaks up, they'll likely attack it, but if an authority figure suddenly, violently and swiftly takes out a couple of their own and presses the attack, they'll crap their pants and run. I suppose there's exceptions to this rule, but I have yet to see it.

I would continue, give chase and catch one or two. I'd get everyones name. I have very persuasive interogation skills.

That's the "what". As to the "why", just because.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 5:41 am 
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Good post Otto, I agree...there will be consequences either way but ...some action is necessary.

Our Panther was involved in the same situation once and he 'terrorized' the bunch with his fury. :D

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 3:41 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Good post Otto, I agree...there will be consequences either way but ...some action is necessary.

Our Panther was involved in the same situation once and he 'terrorized' the bunch with his fury. :D


I was young, in shape, training, not armed with any weapon beyond myself, and really stupid... NOW, being older, out of shape, not training much, always armed, and somewhat more intelligent... I'd go with my current SOP which is always being in Condition Yellow... if something happens that is "hinky" (like a group of thugs struting around) "do not pass go, do not collect $200", go straight to Condition Orange. (For me that means hand on weapon ready to go) At that point, if the wouldbe thugs escalate, I escalate. Bang beats "soda can to the head"... Next...

Ya know... I can still see that little girl holding my glasses (I wore glasses back then), still hear the relieved "thank you, mister" from her & her friend, and still feel the warmth of their little hugs for saving them when I got off of that green-line train @ government center ~25+ years ago. I also remember the "T" police standing there and our exchange along the lines of "Why didn't you come and help?" "Looked like you were doing fine on your own." "There was a whole gang of them against ME!" "We weren't going in to that! Besides, YOU got off the train, they're still laying in there moaning. You'd better go before one of them decides that you started it and want to press charges." "You're kiddin'... right?" A smile and a stare and I walked up the stairs with the kids who had waited on me... and who'd gone for the "T" police (which were useless as you-know-whats on a bull)... And that that was probably about the best IceCream (from a sidewalk vendor on government center plaza... I had a Dreamcicle, but they all went for Fudgcicles or Nutty-buddies...) that I've ever had... All of the sudden, I wonder how those kids are doing... They must be 30-ish now... wonder if they remember me getting us all IceCream... Hope they're having a good life...

Gawd... Sensei, you have a way of getting me all wrapped up in memories like that... I've worked really hard to get over flashbacks to that kind of sh-tuff... Life is so different now from where I thought it was going then! Then again, Every little thing that happens leads us here today... and I wouldn't change that at all...

8)


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:12 pm 
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Sorry Panther...did not mean to get you all bothered by the memories...but you are correct...a personal thing...

You see, I have a way[my personal way] of thinking that from time to time...bringing that up...not necessarily by you...it is a wondeful teaching tool, here on my forum...some people may not see it this way....and that's Ok too...it is way too deep and complex for certain people to grasp.

But it is my way...and to tell you the truth...time and again...when I think of 'going animal' against those seven punks armed with rocks and blunt weapons with nails pounded through them....in a Latin country...and being put in condition to defend my life with extreme violence ...maiming one of them for life...gives me mixed feelings...yet I always see it as a 'teaching experience' ...

the difference between 'hearing' and 'seeing' flashbacks while alive as opposed to eternal deafness/blindness in a grave. :(

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:09 pm 
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Took my family out last evening for a nice dinner. This is where all the things I've been and done have led me. After dinner I found a place to get ice cream. I haven't had ice cream in a very long time... I had a Dreamcicle. Spent time "telling a story" to the little one about how we must live and learn to be successful warriors... not to hurt people, but to keep people from hurting us. Called the 23 year old (at work, but it was OK... I used the excuse that I was checking to see that the package we sent had arrived... it was an obvious "excuse"), but we talked about the most important things. Like no one can "rule over you" unless you let them, use your own moral compass to live your life - not what someone else "says" is the "right thing to do", always live in Condition Yellow, if you have to face someone who wants to harm you - unleash the "hounds of he ll" within you without hesitation, don't try to be an expert fighter - survive... Hung-up and went to bed. Snuggled with my lovely bride, but tossed and turned so much that she ended up going to the little one's room for sleep. Finally got up and left for work ~4am... Re-read my last post... Got a good feeling and had a smile at remembering being on the floor of that "T" car half-hiding under one seat down between the rows and... seeing the punk that was over me trying to stomp me with those big brown workboots... and unleashing the "hounds of he ll" on the obvious targets (knees and nuts were the main target, but) ya know... the right punch to the inside of the thigh will usually bring someone down... :) Long time ago and the old "T" cars were much different than the current ones. I don't recall one single actual "technique" that was used. I could and have written about that, but I mainly remember weird stuff, not "techniques" per se. Like one of the punks grabbing the overhead hold-rails and bringing both his legs up to kick... I thought then that it wasn't that bad... could have been much worse (adrenaline is a great pain-killer :wink: ) and the targets were the same. The best thing about it being on a "T" car, was that they couldn't swarm me. A couple tried to go over the seats, but that worked against them in the end. It also meant that no one (not them or me) could do any fancy roundhouse/jumping-spinning/super-duper kicks... Pretty much limited kicks to plain old vanilla front kicks (and I'd hate to see what the form looked like :roll: ). Doesn't matter. What mattered was giving the kids being picked on the chance to get away.

I should probably tell those who don't know how this all started. I was riding the greenline "T" in Boston ~25-30 years ago... heading from Back Bay towards Government Center... it was very late spring, early summer with a little bit of the school year left and it was in the afternoon after school had let out. There were a number of younger (elementary?) kids on the train (obviously travelling together) and a rowdy group of teens in the back. In the seat on the other side of the aisle from me was a little girl... odd person in her group (seats sat 2 people) sitting alone. All of the sudden one of these teen punks (~15-17, but they all look young to me) comes up and slides into the empty seat beside this girl. He demands her money, she tells him no and to leave her alone, he grabs her by the throat, I grab HIM and say, "HEY, LEAVE HER ALONE!" He goes back to the back with his punk friends, I ask her if she's OK and she says yes. We get to Government Center. I stand to get off and all the younger kids hop up to get off too. (Looking back, they probably weren't planning on getting off there, but with me getting off decided not to stick around... I didn't even think of that at the time... too dense I guess) The punk teens start taunting (calling names, cussing, threatening) and I tell the kids not to worry and just get off... they don't need to be asked twice. I make a mistake that I've only made one other time... I turned my back to the punks to walk off the train. The one I'd admonished rushes up behind me, grabs the overhead railing and double kicks me between the shoulderblades... (Wasn't that bad, but it did make my glasses go flying... it also seemed to be one of their favorite "techniques"). I spun to confront him and the rest of his group were coming fast. (Next lesson which I'd learned in the dojo, but was reiterated in reality: People move faster going forward than going backward... I was backing up, they were advancing... 'nuf said.) It wasn't long before I ended up on the floor between two seats (actually trying to hide under one of them) trying to keep from getting stomped to death. Some bruises, some blood, no biggie... Then my whole mindset changed from "Oh schit" to some slow-mo thinking of "what can I hit, how do I get out of this, survive this"... No thoughts of "I'm going to kick me some @$$ or I'm going to "punish them"... it was all survive. I've thought about it (maybe that's why I think there was that "slow-mo epiphany moment"... it might not have been... who knows...) anyway, 1) there was NO form or technique it was all taking the opportunities to survive as they were presented (trust me, that great form and technique that you have throwing a punch in the dojo... kinda hard to get a good stance and throw that punch when you're laying on the floor of a "T" train... and I certainly wasn't thinking about whether it was a good technique or had good form either! :lol: ) and 2) this is what we train for, but it wasn't anything like what we train for. :? 8O I've talked with Van-Sensei about this before. Bits and pieces, but the most important things are the will to survive and unleashing those hounds. This happened a long time ago and the whole concepts of "street smart training" that are written about have happened since then. Back then (I know that Van-Sensei, GEM-Sensei and other seniors know exactly what I mean), we did kata and kumite... forms and sparring... I even remember talking with folks at tournaments and discussing people's form & technique during kumite with folks saying things like, "Well so-n-so doesn't have good form, he looks more like a common street brawler"... :P Martial arts, training and all the concepts have changed a LOT in the last ~30+ years that I've seen. The thing that I like is how the best of the old and new have stayed even with some side-trips that kind of went off "the path" (tm) at times...

Regardless, I basically wrote the ending in the other post... I got off the train, the little girl (and one of her friends) I'd helped was standing there holding my glasses with a couple of "T" cops... I remember parts of what happened inside and don't know how bad it was... There was blood and I'm sure some broken bones, lots of moaning... I didn't even look when it was over, just left with the kids and went up the steps to Government Center.

(Got cussed out by my then-GF for being late, for "faking" my injuries and for putting the kids up to "lying" to cover for me... we broke up that night...) see how things you think aren't good really do work out for the best! :mrgreen:

Oh Yeah... Those old "T" cars had LOTS of chewing gum (and boogers... yuck) under the seats! :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 2:04 pm 
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Thanks for the post, Panther. Always a learning experience.

Here is something from Mr. Farnam very apropos
Quote:
The world is a terrible, desperate place. Always has been, and living in it is a job from which you don't get to resign. We are ever confronted with two kinds of pain: the pain of discipline, and the pain of regret. You can avoid one, but never both. When the time to perform arrives, the time to prepare has passed!


But it is much easier to go to denial on this and ignore it. Yet in the back of everyone's mind...there is always that gnawing 'tap' :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 5:17 pm 
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Quote:
31 Jan 11

Insurmountable odds?

Earlier this month, a single Indian Gurka soldier (retired) foiled an armed robbery attempt, involving a large criminal gang. There were forty of them! He also prevented at least one forcible rape. The Gurka himself is okay, but three robbery suspects are DRT. At least eight others were badly injured. The balance fled!

The Gurka was aboard a train in India when the robbery attempt took place. He sat silently while the gang snatched cash, rings, jewelry, cell phones, etc from terrified passengers. They threatened with knives and pistols. But, when several robbery suspects attempted to rape a teenage girl, the Gurka sprang into action! With consummate skill, he employed his stock-and-trade weapon, the famous Khukuri blade.

The bandits were no match for him!

With blinding speed, he dispatched them as if they were chickens. Who could, fled for their lives!

In the process, the courageous Gurka suffered a knife wound to his left hand, but was otherwise okay. None of the other passengers were seriously injured.

Unlike in America, the Gurka's bold actions were praised by government and media alike. He is officially recognized for the hero that he is, not denigrated, castigated, and remotely psychoanalyzed as would be his fate over here!

Good show, Bud!

Lessons:

Unlike so many these days, this Gurka knows right from wrong! He knew he had to act, and he knew he had the skills, equipment, and heart necessary to prevail. The last thing these bandits expected was forceful resistance. When it came their way, they couldn't handle it!

He (1) sized-up the situation, (2) made a plan, and (3) exploded into action.

He neither hesitated, nor dithered. He swept his mind free of clutter and focused completely upon the task at hand.

When he made the decision to act, he attacked with all he was worth, holding nothing back.

With consummate skill and daring, and with superiority of purpose, he became a precise, seamless whirlwind of motion- unbeatable, unstoppable. To their horror, these bandits found themselves completely outclassed!

"Never tell me the odds!"
_Farnam

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 6:10 pm 
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Gurka were considered a special-forces like troop back in WWII as I recall. These guys have never been lightweights, even if they are smaller than your average soldier. pound for pound, the odds were in their favor. Retired or not, this guy knew what he was doing.

Your average slightly overweight, twice-a-week karateka? Not so much, I think.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 7:15 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Quote:
31 Jan 11
Lessons:

Unlike so many these days, this Gurka knows right from wrong! He knew he had to act, and he knew he had the skills, equipment, and heart necessary to prevail.


Three and a half years old might seem to be a bit young to get into this... and I do my best to let little ones be little ones while they can, but... The little one listened very intently and captivated with my explanation of being a "good Panther Cub" and learning how to be a decisive warrior not to hurt people, but to keep people from hurting us.

This goes right along with my discussion with the 23 year old about not letting someone else dictate morality. Use your own knowledge, experience and morality and do what's right no matter what.

Van Canna wrote:
Quote:
The last thing these bandits expected was forceful resistance. When it came their way, they couldn't handle it!

He (1) sized-up the situation, (2) made a plan, and (3) exploded into action.


Basically reinforced with the 23 year old when talking about "unleashing the hounds of he ll"... explosively... violently... decisively... The little one isn't quite ready to get into too much of the mindset... yet.

Van Canna wrote:
Quote:
He neither hesitated, nor dithered. He swept his mind free of clutter and focused completely upon the task at hand.

When he made the decision to act, he attacked with all he was worth, holding nothing back.

With consummate skill and daring, and with superiority of purpose, he became a precise, seamless whirlwind of motion- unbeatable, unstoppable. To their horror, these bandits found themselves completely outclassed!


I can not count the number of times we've tried to explain this over the years... it was part of my talk with the 23 yo and it's been mentioned (to much chagrin from certain folks) here... Make the decision NOW what you will do and how you will act/react, then if you need it the decision is already made... (I recommend unleashing the hounds, but that's just my choice 'cause I don't want some one to wonder whether I fought back during my eulogy... I want them to know that I took bas-turds with me!)

Van Canna wrote:
Quote:
"Never tell me the odds!"
_Farnam


The odds? HA! The only "Insurmountable odds" were faced by the thugs!

I have a very good friend of mine who I've done training and meditation with the last few years... He's the first-born son of a Hindu family. Traditionally the first-born Hindu becomes Sikh. THAT is where the (in)famous Gurka warriors come from. The stuff of legends... where facing 1000 (some say 10,000) to one odds, they win! My friend got special "dispensation" to free him from becoming Sikh and allow him to get his PhD and end up doing research here in the States... He (and his father) are basically pacifists... but I wouldn't threaten them or their loved ones! We've gone over a LOT about "mindset", "resolve", "faith" and many other similar subjects that are part of the mental makeup needed to survive. No matter who you are, if you falter in the mental mindset to survive, the chances that your training will save you drops enormously.

Jason Rees wrote:
Gurka were considered a special-forces like troop back in WWII as I recall. These guys have never been lightweights, even if they are smaller than your average soldier. pound for pound, the odds were in their favor. Retired or not, this guy knew what he was doing.

Your average slightly overweight, twice-a-week karateka? Not so much, I think.


Just an FYI Jason, my friend... Don't be so quick to dismiss the old, over-weight, non-training in a dojo, man.

Last year, as I was working that extra job, some punks dismissed this greying-haired, (more than slightly) over-weight, old man and thought they could do as they please because they could "take me". I ended up with some pretty nasty bruises, but some of them ended up with silver bracelets, a free ride to the local lock-up, some "attitude adjustments" by the local constabulary (even after I was done), two ended up with a ride in ambulances (one broken arm at the elbow... that hadta hurt, the other with a broken nose)...

The young woman who they had gotten cornered in a dark area of the club told the club owner that I was the ONLY reason she would come back. Every time she came back if I wasn't working, she didn't go in... if I was, she stuck to me almost like glue... Last I heard she's doing the modelling bit... successfully... she's Brazillian (just so's you know)... (not named Giselle tho... :wink:) Besides, I have my saint of a wife at home... This young woman told me that she knew I thought of her like a daughter because of the way I acted and talked about my family...

Enough of that... Moral is: Never underestimate the power of "unleashing the hounds"! (Is it obvious I've grown to like that phrase... or what? :lol: )

Oh yeah... and Van-Sensei, GEM-Sensei, Bill-Sensei and others who know me will vouch for the fact that even tho I have a 3-1/2 yo, I'm "up there" in yearly count... (but acting young, keeps you young... so I act like a kid with more expensive toys! :mrgreen: )


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 8:15 pm 
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LOL! Panther, I'll never accuse you of being average!

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 10:04 pm 
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Jason Rees wrote:
LOL! Panther, I'll never accuse you of being average!


:mrgreen: He sure isn't....

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 10:08 pm 
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More lessons...Panther
Quote:
I also remember the "T" police standing there and our exchange along the lines of "Why didn't you come and help?" "Looked like you were doing fine on your own." "There was a whole gang of them against ME!" "We weren't going in to that!

Besides, YOU got off the train, they're still laying in there moaning. You'd better go before one of them decides that you started it and want to press charges." "You're kiddin'... right?" A smile and a stare and I walked up the stairs with the kids who had waited on me... and who'd gone for the "T" police (which were useless as you-know-whats on a bull)...

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 10:10 pm 
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J. Farnham
Quote:
Even the best training falls short with regard to one critical aspect: there is never genuine expectation of injury, nor death!

Few of us receive anywhere near the training of our Special Operations Forces, yet they are killed regularly by less-trained, less-motivated, less-hale conscripts, with ageing, poorly-maintained AKs, who haphazardly stick them over walls and yank on the trigger. You can kill most of them, but there is ever the issue of the 'lucky shot!'

Physical fighting should only be undertaken when you have no choice. When threats can be avoided, they should be. When disengagement can be accomplished at low risk, it should be.

However, when forced to take a stand, a stand worth fighting, and dying, for, then we should counter with great skill, surprise, speed, potency, advantage, and enthusiasm! When you must strike, put him to sleep!"

Comment: When Solomon, in Proverbs 26:17, says: "Who passes by, and meddles in strife belonging not to him, is like one who takes a dog by the ears," his point is mostly lost on egghead theologians, but not on dog-owners! Who are familiar with dogs know and understand that grabbing a dog by the ears will, via a short route, get you bit!

Thus, there is a price one must be willing to pay when "... coming to the aid of the weak and innocent." An especially worthwhile consideration for the young and naive, who just got their CCW permit, and erroneously regard it as a "Hero License!"

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