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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 9:59 pm 
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In my work as a catastrophic liability claims rep. _ I had to choose many experts in a given field that would stand the test of a courtroom cross examination.

We always went with the ones with a proven track record and aced by peer review.

Same here with personal defense experts.

We know who they are and why they are there.

In past discussions about the 'validity' of experts...I used to roll off my chair laughing when so many would question these experts just out of pure semantics...without knowing the differnce between their A/hole and a hole in the ground.

We had a particular guy from overseas and his ' buddy' doing just so he could hear his finger taps on the keyboard.

I'd like to see any of these jokers take on Rory directly. :mrgreen:

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Operant conditioning in a few principles and techniques can be better than doing nothing, but how many of us tune out Bill and Van when they talk about KISS and gross-motor principles, and proceed to only worry about perfecting those dozens of forms with their hundreds of techniques?


Hit the nail square on the head, my friend. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 1:41 am 
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Glenn wrote:
but how many of us tune out Bill and Van when they talk about KISS and gross-motor principles, and proceed to only worry about perfecting those dozens of forms with their hundreds of techniques?


There's more to martial arts than self defense, more to life than martial arts. There's plenty of room for perfecting hundreds of techniques, even if it's just art for art's sake. Martial arts techniques are interesting to study and at least potentially useful, generally. I sense, however, the seductiveness of studying many techniques is based on the blind hope that a large catalog of techniques will give us an edge, a move for every situation. From what I've gathered, this isn't likely to be true. Well, maybe it is true if you literally have a catalog, hardbound with heavy paper. Then you can hit somebody with it if you need to.

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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 4:21 am 
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Good points Mike...and very true.

There are many components to the study of martial arts...it is up to the individual to choose which primrose path he wishes to follow. No problem.

But the defensive aspect of martial arts is very complex these days and needs much reaching out and introspection.

People who don't believe this are really in a delusive mind state according to the writings of Rory.

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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 2:53 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:

There are many components to the study of martial arts...it is up to the individual to choose which primrose path he wishes to follow. No problem.

But the defensive aspect of martial arts is very complex these days and needs much reaching out and introspection.

People who don't believe this are really in a delusive mind state according to the writings of Rory.

I have to think about the days when Van and I would duel on these Forums. And now with time, it seems we agree more often than not. It is truly scary. :lol:

The first point... There really should be a laissez faire attitude about the path. Why? Because every individual brings a unique set of abilities and shortcomings to a learning environment. In order to maximize the experience, each must ideally find his/her ideal path. Some may do well in a closed, structured environment. My brain wants to see the same principles applied as many different ways as possible so I can absorb the common thread at an intuitive level.

I agree that "more is better" doesn't always apply. Knowing and practicing more kata could mean that you're giving your brain more choices when a decision point comes at a critical self-defense moment. And more options can lead to a slower response.

On the flip side, a literal practice of anything we do is useless. In our very real world, chaos tells us that many self-defense situations will never, ever be repeated again in the history of time - the exact same way. So if we train with specifics in mind, we're doomed to succeeding forever in our last great battle. Wonderful...

Somewhere in-between being ill-prepared and being over-schooled is a place where we have a Rory (to give an example) who can adapt and usually respond appropriately in situations where most cannot.

When I started my last job and I knew I had a lot of learning to do to catch up with the productivity of a few in my "science sweat shop", I understood the challenge ahead of me. But I brought a rich background to my new place of employment. Maybe I had just a smattering experience programming in SAS. But I had a lifetime of experience programming in Basic (first time in 1970), Fortran, DEC assembler, PDP script language, unix script language, SPSS, RS/1, Visual Basic... You get the idea. I wasn't a slave to any one language. Rather I thought of myself as training to be the kind of person who could sit down in front of a computer with a manual of the language and Google, and get it done with the help of my peers. I wasn't a SAS programmer, but rather a person who could program in any language thrown my way - given enough time to prepare. I made my first deadline by doing a few consecutive weekends. Then I finished a project that got so much attention that Predictive Modeling is preparing a version of my work for real time production application. Now I have a person I admire greatly in my group coming to me twice (2 times) in the last week to ask me how to do a few things she couldn't. She's worked there 5 years.

My point? Some of us expand our horizons - past a mastering of the very basics - not to muddy the waters, but rather to help us see through them better. Learning to master fighting a Uechika can be a bit like trying to get a charge out of kissing your sister. Listening to inbred teachers is kind of like my experience walking into my first aikido dojo and looking at the "attacks" people were learning to defend themselves against. I stopped going when I realized I could hit them at will. I picked my aikido training back up in a place where most participants had a black belt in some other style.

The irreverence that comes from Rory, Van, and myself isn't arrogance, but rather a touch of wisdom. Speaking of myths, we've learned not to believe in or trust our own.

And rather than cluttering our brains with technique junk, well...

I'll speak for myself. I talk about principles-based fighting because I think the solution to the decisions vs. choices dilemma in a world of mathematical chaos is to master simple fundamental principles and then master being able to make up the details as you go along. The beauty of getting out of your own dojo is seeing that other people can apply the same principles, only in a slightly different way. In the exercise of separating the important from the unimportant (and sometimes downright irrelevant), it's possible to see both the unshakeable truths and the beauty of unpredictable Nature.

Not classical music, but rather jazz.

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Not chess, Mr. Spock. Poker!

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- Bill


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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 3:43 pm 
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:mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 7:30 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
People who don't believe this are really in a delusive mind state according to the writings of Rory.


And I believe him. I really don't participate any more in any other martial arts forums, but I remember biting my tongue in the past when a relatively high ranking person in another style announced that, as a result of their karate training they were sure they could handle any situation that came along, including a knife attack. What could I say? You know how well some people love you for challenging beliefs like that, but at least you have devoted decades of study to the issue and outrank them to boot. I got nothin'.

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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 4:04 am 
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Hi Mike,

I hear you.

I think it is really very simple:

1. Good training in any martial arts is very helpful in self defense and self preservation, but different people have different likes, dislikes, passions, and abilities of understanding and performing them. They also bring different, unique personal baggage, to the training and become easily influenced by folklore simply because it gives them comfort.
Not that martial arts 'in the hands' of the right person are not useful for defensive action…but that there are other dire critical companion components that a martial artist need to 'school' herself with …when contemplating the possibility of surviving street violence.

2. What I have written in the past, in the way of 'questioning' and what Rory points out so poignantly in his books…. is, for some people, emotionally 'wreaking' because they choose to see it as their minds_ pedestals' 'vaporizers' instead of a reinforcement of their learning experiences. After all any fight is first fought in the mind and we all need to be able to get over that first significant hurdle.

When in the past we read the rumblings of the 'Dissed Nation' Mike…I am sure you also observed that, sadly, the loudest protesters came across as the worst 'baggage handlers' ….

3. In his writings, Rory writes about the different types of real world violence, the types and nature of the threats one is likely to be faced with in the real world, he talks about the different types of violence dynamics that most of us don't even begin to understand because we were never exposed to it__

He writes about 'real personal capacities' as opposed to 'imagined' ___ he talks about our 'personal glitches' we will bring to the fight….and an invitation into the 'looking glass' _ he talks about 'Predatory strategies' that again most of us haven't got a clue_

He points out the necessity for the people who contemplate using their martial arts skills for self defense_
To learn and accept the real world we are in the knowing and acceptance of the self_ and the necessity to learn to discern the nature of the threat before us.

4. Chapter 6 of his new book will be particularly unsettling for many of us: The 'You' _ the 'This is your brain on fear' _'this is your body' _ the 'Training and you'_ 'The threats' _ 'The Environment' _'The Luck' _ 'The gifts'
'The Chaos management' _ 'The Discretionary Time'_ 'The Fight' _ and "The Intervening" _

Contain enough wisdom to certainly send some people, especially the ones I have in mind from the past complaints on my forum, in a deep emotional tailspin.

But some will be saved by Rory's exceptionality in getting the 'real message across' …

5. The first few pages of Rory's new book 'Facing Violence' contain advance praise for his work by a great group of people on the subject matter.

I was surprised and pleased that something that I wrote was also included in the last page.

Here it is "The majority of facing violence is divided into tutorial units discussing specific elements of violence in self protection and how they relate to the individual's chaotic aftermath.
In a way 'Facing Violence' tells a story. It's a story of liberation, of taking the first step towards understanding the foundations of emotional survival beyond the physical
"

~~

And I would not say 'you got nothing' Mike.
Your obvious intelligence and analytical mind is what scares some of the most vocal in dissent. :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:47 pm 
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Bas Rutten's take on martial arts myths
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnQY3hLJ4S4

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