Guests and fish

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Guests and fish

Postby Bill Glasheen » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:31 pm

"Guests, like fish, begin to smell after three days."
- Ben Franklin

It is a time of worldwide discontent. Tunisia was one of the early hot spots. It led to the fall of governments in Tunisia, Egypt, and Lybia. One protest inspires another. Some are just; some are less thoughtful.

With economic hardship in the U.S. and in Europe, those affected are expressing their frustration and pain on the streets. The protests in Greece after their economic collapse and proposed austerity measures have been many and intense.

And now with our own economic recession, wrongdoing in many levels of our economy, and bailouts of institutions "too big to fail", the protests have hit here. We've discussed the Occupy movement on other threads. The cause seems noble enough; the reality is what it is.

I post this because it is about conflict in the broader sense. It isn't one-on-one, but it is all about the kinds of things that professionals (e.g. Roy Bedard) think about and train for.

- Bill

Wall Street Journal wrote:OCTOBER 27, 2011

Occupy Clashes Test Mayors

Police and Protesters Scuffle in Oakland, While Eviction Leads to More Than 50 Arrests in Atlanta


The growing size and raucousness of some Occupy Wall Street protests are putting pressure on mayors—even a few who initially welcomed the movements—to shut them down as concerns mount about safety and extended use of public spaces.

Protesters in Atlanta and Oakland, Calif., vowed Wednesday to fight eviction orders after being displaced from their encampments under orders from their respective mayors. "Sorry guys, but this isn't over," a 21-year-old Oakland protester who would only give his name as "D" told two police officers Wednesday morning. He and others said they would continue clashes with officers after they were evicted from a City Hall plaza under an order from Mayor Jean Quan.
Police Crack Down on Protesters

The trouble began after some demonstrators in front of the Oakland Library Tuesday afternoon began throwing "paint or other hazardous material" at officers, said a statement from Oakland police posted on Twitter. The police responded by firing tear gas at the crowd, according to the statement, which said officers deployed gas a second time at about 7:45 p.m. after demonstrators refused to follow an order to disperse.

Police said protesters threw M-80 fireworks at the officers as well as objects including bottles, rocks, pots and pans. Police added that they responded by firing about four "bean-bag rounds" at protesters.

Ms. Quan, a Democrat, had marched with the protesters a few weeks ago. But in a statement Tuesday, she said she closed the encampment because of safety and health concerns. "Many Oaklanders support the goals of the national Occupy Wall Street movement," she said. "However, over the last week it was apparent that neither the demonstrators nor the city could maintain safe or sanitary conditions." Ms. Quan wasn't available for comment Wednesday.
Related

Some protesters said they did nothing to provoke the police. Paul Burton, 56, who identified himself only as a union member, said officers fired tear gas for no apparent reason as they ordered the crowds to disperse. "I could not believe it," Mr. Burton said. "Just the sheer number of officers used to disperse them was incredible."

More than 2,500 arrests have been made associated with the Occupy movement world-wide, according to the "@OccupyArrests" Twitter feed.

News Hub hosts Kelly Evans and Evan Newmark discuss the Occupy: Oakland protests. Demonstrators were met by police late Tuesday night, who used tear gas to clear the public space being used for protests.

Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed, also a Democrat, had last week issued an executive order allowing the protesters to camp at Woodruff Park in downtown until Nov. 7. But police arrested more than 50 protesters and closed the park in the wee hours of Wednesday morning, after Mr. Reed changed his mind. The protesters "moved from conducting an initially peaceful demonstration to increasingly aggressive actions," Mr. Reed said in a statement. Among his apparent concerns were an unauthorized hip-hop concert held at the park last Saturday, which drew large crowds, and a protester who circled the park Tuesday toting an AK-47, which he had a permit to carry but which unnerved others in the park.

On Wednesday, after being released from jail, Occupy Atlanta leader Tim Franzen said protesters planned to continue the movement. Mr. Reed has become the "arch enemy" in the eyes of the Atlanta protesters, with some members saying he should be recalled, Mr. Franzen said.

Mr. Reed has faced a difficult balancing act with the protesters. Students and young people played a crucial role in his narrow victory in 2009. But his decision to let the protesters camp out for three weeks drew complaints from businesses and neighborhood groups in a downtown district that he is struggling to revive.

More than 100 Occupy Chicago protesters marched to city hall Wednesday flanked by police on bicycles and four legal observers from the National Lawyers Guild. At city hall, the protesters piled into elevators and rode to the fifth floor, gathering outside Mayor Rahm Emanuel's office, where they chanted, "Whose house? Our house!"

On each of the past two Sundays, police have arrested more than 100 protesters who refused to leave Chicago's Grant Park after it closed.

Demonstrators carry away a man hit by a tear-gas canister fired by the city's police.

Members of Mr. Emanuel's administration have offered to meet with the protesters, and Mr. Emanuel, a Democrat who is a former congressman and White House Chief of Staff for President Barack Obama, "is committed to striking a balance that is right for the city and for the protesters," said Chris Mather, Mr. Emanuel's spokeswoman.

She added the protesters will be allowed to stay in front of the Federal Reserve Bank, where they have maintained a steady presence, as long as they don't block the public way.

Meanwhile, in New York, a New York Police Department spokesman said at least 10 arrests were made Wednesday night as protesters went on an unannounced march through Manhattan. It wasn't immediately clear what prompted the clashes. The spokesman said the protesters were charged with disorderly conduct.

At the Lower Manhattan park in New York where the Occupy movement began, a sense of near-permanence has set in. Unlike in early days of the protests 5½ weeks ago, when police tore down anything resembling a tent, the park is now filled with makeshift dwellings.

Mayor Michael Bloomberg has little say over ending the protests because people are camped out in a park that is open to the public but owned by Brookfield Office Properties Inc. The landlord has backed off its initial demands that the New York Police Department or private security evict the protesters or enforce its rules for the park, nearly all of which are being broken.

At first, Mr. Bloomberg voiced strong disagreement with the protesters, but he has since softened his tone. "Every city has to deal with the realities of how many people, where they are, what their tolerance is for freedom of speech," the mayor said Wednesday.


- WSJ
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Re: Guests and fish

Postby Jason Rees » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:45 am

I see constant complaints from the Occupy folks in Oakland that all these police officers are brought in from outside the 'local' area, who will never see these protesters again. They're mistaken. I know a police officer who lives not two hours outside Oakland, and who has been called in to assist at so many protests in the SF/Oakland area that he's lost count of how many he has had to work for. This is all overtime, on top of his regular work hours.

I was glad to hear that the Iraq war vet who got clocked by an OC cannister is in fair condition. I do think a certain police officer caught on camera chucking a flash-bang right into the middle of a group trying to assist the downed vet is going to face some serious trouble. It's fishy that there's tons of video on Youtube that starts after the police start using tear gas and flash-bangs... not one I've found shows what occurred before.

These groups need to nominate councils of people who have the authority to meet with city officials, talk to the media, etc... but they won't.

Mayors in these cities have a chance to network with similarly-afflicted counterparts and figure out what works with these people, and what doesn't. I wouldn't be surprised if the police departments weren't already talking amongst eachother. They also need to turn Youtube to their advantage: if people really are throwing rocks, bottles, crapping on doorsteps and on police cruisers, the public needs to see this to understand the challenges these cities are facing in dealing with the Occupy crowds. You hear about drug dealers and all kinds of malcontents... but nothing from the city administrations that has anything credible to back it... and you're dealing with people who hold officials in near-contempt. You need video. You need to communicate. Mayors' staffs should be working overtime on a massive public relations campaign, get their feet wet, talk to the people on the street, find out what they want, and I'm being a bit Machiavellian, but maybe, just maybe they can steer these people in a more productive (for their administration, and for public welfare) direction.

From a self-defense standpoint... as the Iraq war vet's situation showed... stay away from protests that show any sign of getting rambunctious. Avoid massing of police forces. Avoid roaming mobs. Awareness is key.
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Re: Guests and fish

Postby Van Canna » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:34 pm

"Guests, like fish, begin to smell after three days."
- Ben Franklin

:lol: Hey Bill, can you tell us wherefrom this saying originated?

Also do guests really smell like fish or of some other odor? :wink:
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Re: Guests and fish

Postby Bill Glasheen » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:47 pm

Van Canna wrote:"Guests, like fish, begin to smell after three days."
- Ben Franklin

:lol: Hey Bill, can you tell us wherefrom this saying originated?


Ben Franklin is the person generally credited with saying it first. I've yet to see any reference that shows otherwise. Clever man, that Ben...

Van Canna wrote:Also do guests really smell like fish or of some other odor? :wink:


Umm... I guess that depends upon the guest. :roll:

- Bill
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Re: Guests and fish

Postby Van Canna » Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:56 am

:mrgreen:
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Re: Guests and fish

Postby Jason Rees » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:42 am

Jason Rees wrote:
Mayors in these cities have a chance to network with similarly-afflicted counterparts and figure out what works with these people, and what doesn't. I wouldn't be surprised if the police departments weren't already talking amongst eachother.... - 28 Oct 2011


Turns out they'd already been communicating, the national police organization as early as 11 October and as late as November 4th. Guess I wasn't too far off.
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Re: Guests and fish

Postby Jason Rees » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:35 pm

The most disturbing thing I read today. From the makers of Occupy, I bring you:

"This means escalation. A raising of the stakes. It’s one step closer to, you know, a revolution.”


"Alongside the essay was a list of powerful neoconservatives, with asterisks next to the names of those who Lasn believed were Jewish."


"In a lilting voice, he speaks of “a dark age coming for humanity” and of “killing capitalism,” alternating gusts of passion with gentle laughter."
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Re: Guests and fish

Postby Valkenar » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:00 pm

Yeah, the media enjoyed highlighting the most radical as well as the racist and antisemitic corners of the Tea party when it was new too. Just goes to show that bigotry isn't confined to any one ideology. Fortunately that kind of extreme hatred remains the fringe on both the left and right.

I wouldn't worry about the Occupy movement. They have one important thing in common with the Tea party, and that's the fact that (at least part of) what they're protesting is the entrenched and corrupt political structure in this country. So either they're wrong, and there's nothing to change, or they're right and they're screwed anyway.

If you ask me, nothing is going to change (in either political direction) until the situation is actually a whole lot worse for most people than it is right now. Basically, until campaign ads can no longer have the power to convince most people to continue voting in the same old same old, we're stuck with what we've got.

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Re: Guests and fish

Postby Bill Glasheen » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:46 am

Valkenar wrote:
Basically, until campaign ads can no longer have the power to convince most people to continue voting in the same old same old, we're stuck with what we've got.


Is it the campaign ads, or is it the fixation of the press (as part of an alleged vetting process) on that which is irrelevant? Anymore, it seems the only way not to be food for the vultures is to have no leadership experience whatsoever or to be a Mormon. I'm not sure that either should be a prerequisite for the CEO of a country.

Part of the reason we have so many poor leaders is because few good people in their right minds want to subject themselves to that process.

- Bill
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Re: Guests and fish

Postby Jason Rees » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:08 pm

Bill Glasheen wrote:
Part of the reason we have so many poor leaders is because few good people in their right minds want to subject themselves to that process.

- Bill


I question whether some of history's greatest leaders were really in their right minds anyway.

That doesn't endear me to Ron Paul.
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