Seeking sources....

[Chris McKaskell]

Greetings Bill et al,

I'm hoping someone here can point me in the correct direction: I'm looking for the sources of some of the things I've heard over the years such as...

1) most fights end up on the ground.

2) victims of multiple attackers tend to suffer head and neck injuries from being kicked while on the ground.

3) regarding deaths involving mutiple stab wounds -- the fatal wound is usually delivered near the end of the attack -- or, the first few stabs are not necessarily fatal.

4) stabbing victims often don't realize they've been stabbed until after the fight is over.

We all know others and I'm hoping to be pointed in the correct direction to be able to find the actual stats, or the sources of some of the many 'truths' which seem to pop up in SD classes.

In short, I'm trying to separate the urban myth from accepted measurement/analysis -- so I can be assured I'm presenting accurate material in my own presentations.

[Bill Glasheen]

Good for you, Chris!

I have to say that I haven't the foggiest idea if any of those sayings are anything more than "conventional wisdom." But if we get enough people working on it, we might be able to dig a bit and see how far down the rabbit hole we go.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

1) most fights end up on the ground.

This article articulates the origin of this expression, and then expresses an opinion on the matter. There are no careful data and it isn't in a peer-reviewed journal. But I believe the source is reputable.

Do Most Fights Really End Up On the Ground?

For the record... I share his opinions. I have all along.

Oh and even though I'm a "stand up" fighter, I teach ukemi on day one.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

3) regarding deaths involving mutiple stab wounds -- the fatal wound is usually delivered near the end of the attack -- or, the first few stabs are not necessarily fatal.

As a man of logic (scientist), a physiologist, and someone who has performed hundreds of open-heart surgeries in the lab, I believe I can deliver an expert opinion on this item.

First...
The statement is somewhat moronic. It's like saying you die at the end of your life.

Second...
A "fatal" stab usually doesn't cause immediate death. Gunshot wound to the head? Yea. Stab to the heart? You may still be able to move for a while. My firearms instructor told me of a case he was involved with where his shot blew the bad guy's heart open. He witnessed the autopsy so knew it to be true. But that didn't stop the perp from continuing to attack for the next 30 seconds.

For the most part a stab wound will be fatal if it causes enough blood loss (which can take time) or if it causes a bilateral pneumothorax (which causes you slowly to asphyxiate). Meanwhile... you may still fight more and get stabbed more as you are slowly dieing. So was the last stab the one that killed you? It may just be the last stab administered while the person was alive.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

4) stabbing victims often don't realize they've been stabbed until after the fight is over.

The one thing that bothers me about this statement is the word "often." I don't have the data, and I don't think anyone else does. But it is possible.

When we are neurohormonally juiced, we have a highly altered sense of pain. In my days of sparring I'd come home and take my gi off, and see purple marks all over my body. I couldn't tell you where most of them came from.

So this is possible. But "often"? I don't know.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Here's an anecdote that validates the possibility. But it doesn't say anything about how often the phenomenon occurs. My only argument is with the use of the word "often."

4) stabbing victims often don't realize they've been stabbed until after the fight is over.

This story was just reported this morning.

Man Has Nail in Brain for 36 Hours


I witnessed the interview of the guy with the nail in the brain. He knew the nail gun went off, but didn't know the nail went in his brain. Only after a day when experiencing nausea did he think to get medical attention. When they came back and told him there was a nail in his brain, he didn't believe it.

For the record... the interview was AFTER the nail had been surgically removed. The guy seemed perfectly fine, and joked about how he wanted the nail as a souvenir.

In that link you will find an X-Ray slide show of things found in human bodies. Slide 19 shows a picture and has the following caption.

A Chinese doctor shows a knife which was taken out of Lu Fuyan's brain at a hospital in Yuxi city, southwest China's Yunnan Province, Feb. 12, 2011. The patient, who complained for years of headaches, was found to have the four-inch dagger blade embedded in his skull.

Slide 23 shows a picture and has the following caption.

Edeilson Manoel do Nascimento holds an X-ray showing a knife that was inside his skull, at the Hospital das Clinicas in Recife, Brazil, Sept. 23. Nascimento is recovering nicely after a team of surgeons removed the 4-inch knife that had remained lodged in his head for three years after a bar fight. Severe headaches led him to have the knife removed, according to press reports.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Chris,

The one thing to keep in mind when thinking of fights going to the ground vs. handling them the 'stand up way'…is, what I keep repeating over an over…who are you fighting, how many, and what defines the word fight…i.e., what are the circumstances of the fight.

The 'nature' of your opponent you are likely to meet in a street fight…i.e., how big and strong he is…his size and weight…his intent…his ferocity…skills, if any, but most important, will he be alone facing you or will you be facing more than one opponent.

It appears that these days most fights in the street will involve facing multiple opponents so you will have a problem of size/weight/directional force coming at you, plus the operant conditioning of your enemies, such as the common 'shoot' …football style take downs most people have practiced in sports at school.

One on one in the street may just remain a stand up encounter but against multiple opponents take downs are almost a guarantee.

[Bill Glasheen]

What is lacking in so many of these discussions are real data. Wouldn't it be great if someone could spend some time going through perhaps 1000 police reports of fights, and extract relevant information to document patterns? This is how real historians and real scientists perform their respective crafts.

I'll have to dig through some of my books to see if there are any references in them which address these various scenarios that Chris and Van speak of.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Good point. When we hear that most fights go to the ground, one envisions most being like 90%...

But we know that the dynamics of street fights differ on a continuum…think of where… most likely you will have to fight, for example_ is it in a stadium at the ball game? Is it a crowded drinking joint? Is it in a public rest room? Is it at a party?

What will cause you to go down? One case I handled involved a guy at a house party knocked down by a punch and when on the floor having his face grated like cheese on a floor HVAC vent.

In another, a security guard responding to trouble by punks in a parking lot, was tackled to the ground, hit his head and died.

Once you cross hands with people of bad intent, there is a strong possibility of ending on the ground…but I think most[or 90%] is a bit exaggerated. It is probably a lot less than that but significant anyway.

Here is something of a study.

http://selfdefenceblog.com/2011/09/11/f ... he-ground/

Street fights are very unpredictable but thankfully there is some very useful research that we can draw upon that really does dispel the myth that 90% of street fights go to the ground. Bakari Akil II (Ph.D), who is an Assistant Professor of Communication at Middle Georgia College and a no-gi Brazilian Jiu Jitsu martial artist, conducted a study to find out what percentage of fights go to the ground. He viewed hours of CCTV footage examining a variety of street fights looking for patterns in the violence. In summary the study discovered the following:
• 42% of fights ended up with both people on the ground while 72% ended with at least one person on the ground.
• Where at least one person was grounded 57% went down due to a throw or a take down, 7% were pushed, 35% from being punched and 1% were downed from a kick.
• The person who hit the ground first lost the fight 57% of the time, while 33% were a draw (no discernable winner) and 8% went on to win the fight. These figures were reversed for those who hit the ground second or stayed standing.

The conclusion

While I do have questions about the research I do think it is still solid enough to learn from. It demonstrates that while the figure of how many fights go to ground is exaggerated it is still extremely high and therefore highlights the importance to have experience of ground fighting.

[Bill Glasheen]

Excellent, Van. That's exactly the kind of study that a scholar seeks. I'm sure Chris will find this very useful. And as a scientist, I can tell you that this also passes "the sniff test."

I know how important this kind of material is in your business. It's how rates are set and settlements are made. I'm a bit spoiled in my world in that I have information-rich health care transaction data which I can mine both to answer such questions and help predict risk.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Right on Bill. I tell my students, no matter how big and strong/conditioned/skillful in 'stand up' they might be...to assume they will be taken down in a fight and to expect to be hurt in the fall and the 'booting' that comes next.

It makes a big difference in the way they then train to move and foresee such situations.

The claim that Uechi is also a grappling style is all well and good....but if you get taken down and get seriously hurt as you go down..you will never get a chance to use the so called 'Uechi grapple' _

Reason why your Ukemi training is golden.

[Van Canna]

I have always taught to be very careful about 'assumptions' about our skills and our ideas of street fighting dynamics.

Rory Miller makes a point of this over and over in his books.

Some of us may have had some experience with some fights in the past...I had a multiple attack situation once and I was lucky to escape unharmed...but that means nothing in the next fight if there is to be another.

The reason why I always tell students to be aware what their training preconditions them to assume what their fight will be like and glow in 'confidence'...

What defines a street fight?

We consider a street fight to be any fight without rules.
• On the streets we don’t know the intention of the other person – does he want to just injure us, mug us, knock us out, kill us, maim us…?
• We don’t know how many people are going to be involved – it might begin with one and than another person joins in, it can be simply someone who comes to stop the fight…
• On the streets we don’t know the surroundings – are there rocks or stones on the ground or floor, are there broken bottles lying around?
• Does the other person/s have a weapon, if he does, does he intend to use it?
• And so on…
A Street fight can catch us in different situations:
# When we’re the initiators or attackers to begin with
# When we’re just the first to strike, but didn’t initiate the whole situation
# When we’ve been attacked
# When we’re defending some one else
# Either way…
A street fight can be any one of these situations, either together or on their own – as long as one thing remains unknown –

What are the rules
When we don’t know the rules the best and safest thing is to assume there aren’t any.
We must assume the worst.

This from another site.

Complacency, false self confidence, especially when a person ages and things change physically and mentally...will lead us into the buying of those extra long black belts by instinct...you know the ones that will be used as casket straps while your friends perform their last 'sanchin salute' at grave site.

[Chris McKaskell]

I'm finding all of this quite helpful, thank you.

I've also been informally polling other instructors and have learned that most are simply passing along hearsay and urban myths they picked up from their own instructors.

Marcus and Dazzel sent me some useful links to various statistical resources including stats canada -- real big picture stuff -- may need to see if I can gain access to the numbers behind the numbers...although the related links have begun to show some useful info.

And I've just begun re-reading a few of the books and articles I have access to -- but often the references are to sources which require the reading of other books so this may take some time! And who knows whether it will lead to actual primary sources!?!

I've found Daren Lauer's articles helpful in the past, but my recollection is that many of the studies he references are internal and may be difficult to acquire.

And Rory's extremely well read so his books are always helpful for gaining direction.

Could be an interesting little project....