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 Post subject: Force Decisions
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:01 am 
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I only received my copy of Rory Miller's new book recently, and haven't finished reading it yet....

Off the top though - it strikes me as a book which has been long overdue.

Here, in Canada we've had some pretty unfortunate events which have been well publiczised (if not well covered) -- from poor judgement resulting in the death of the Polish gentleman at Vancouver's airport after being tazered, to poor judgement resulting the shooting deaths of four RCMP officers in British Columbia, or poor information/policy resulting in the relatively recent death of an OPP officer not far from here....

Anyway, so far in my reading, I think the information contained in this book should be examined by anyone who even considers profering an opinion on these difficult topics.

Choosing the correct course when all all actions lead to tragedy somewhere...Not a profession for the weak of heart.

edit: had a minor brain malfunction -- meant Vancouver, not Toronto

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Last edited by Chris McKaskell on Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Force Decisions
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:53 am 
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Hi Chris,

Thanks for the thread.

What Rory Miller outlines in his book is really chilling for most of us, professionals and amateurs in the world of street violence, and more specifically so for the average martial artist, who according to Rory, is driven by assumptions based on simple tradition ….and has a tendency to ignore the area of unexpected consequences from which _even the ones who believe they may be well prepared for survival/self protection…are completely unprepared.

There is a denial factor which is very pervasive as to the concepts Rory points out…in the vast majority of martial artists for a number of reasons we have covered on this forum for the past ten/twelve years.

You can also bet that the great majority of us, who practice Uechi, have not bothered to read the books of Rory, as they feel it has no value to them.

And something else generally related to the teachings of Rory in his books, especially for some of us who heavily rely on our supposed great skills and power of techniques developed in whatever 'top training' we may have been involved, is the simple truth out on the street:

…'EXPECT NOTHING'

Many 'force on force' professionals whose job is to have to face the kinds of violence_ we martial artists only vaguely absorb in the subconscious_ through their street experiences, report that for example, though the human body may die easily, it is extremely difficult to stop when 'amped up' and coming for you with ferocious intent, armed or unarmed.

The medical professionals will all agree with those opinions.

Rory gives us one of his experiences against an 'amped up' convict, I believe in his book 'meditations' on violence' that is indeed an eye opener for us 'karate killers' _

From Pepper Spray having no effects on some 'amped up' assailants….batons blows failing to stop…to police files full of evidence that even .45 caliber multiple hits center mass …having no immediate stoppage of assailants_

_ the intelligent martial arts empty hands practitioner, especially as he begins to age and 'ease up' on his training….will pay heed to his limitations and maybe avoid falling prey to his own misconceptions about assumed abilities in the situations Rory describes more particularly in his book 'Facing Violence' _

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 Post subject: Re: Force Decisions
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:20 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLAbV51L-u0

Found some videos of a seminar this guy did in Russia. Interesting guy who stresses a mind set approach.Guys like this, Kelly McCann, and Rory Miller make me question my training and my "mindset."

Thanks Van for making me think.


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 Post subject: Re: Force Decisions
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:25 am 
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I find the closed mind a very odd thing...I've been seeing it a lot lately as I've been organizing a series of seminars by Rory here, in London.

The simplest observation I might draw from the hundreds of conversations I've had with people encouraging them or their organizations to attend is this: the people who could likely most benefit from the information are the least likey to attend. The people who will attend are already curious and are actively seeking the info knowing already that something is missing from their training.

And I guess that's good: it means many of the attendees will be starting on a similar page.

Nevertheless, I'm thinking this book should be mandatory reading for anyone who has ever wondered why something went down the way it did.

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 Post subject: Re: Force Decisions
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:14 pm 
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Josann,

Thank you for the link to the video clip…and glad that at least this forum, with the contributions of others such as yourself…. gets some people to 'think' if anything.



Chris,

Interesting you being in England and arranging seminars for our good friend and IUKF Shihan, Rory Miller.

I thought you were in Canada. Can you tell us more of why you are in England…and your involvement in the martial arts/self protection there? I do know that there is lots of violence in England; including knife attacks…can you comment on this?

Since you are apparently deep into the 'arrangements' for Rory…I wish you would keep this thread going forever for related discussions for the benefit of us all.

You write
Quote:
The simplest observation I might draw from the hundreds of conversations I've had with people encouraging them or their organizations to attend is this: the people who could likely most benefit from the information are the least likely to attend.


My opinion on this is that both the teachers and consequently their students, in passing on their particular kind of training, have been infused with certain expectations of conclusions to mostly imagined acts of violence to which they may be exposed.

In _ some of them_ this ongoing self perpetuating 'infusion' will manifest in a certain kind of self styled arrogance of imagined superiority…I think you know the types.

You also may become aware of what you already may know about these certain people that surely you come into contact with in your hundreds of conversations_ i.e., that many of them have a deep doubt about themselves/inferiority complexes, ensconced in the subconscious, that they try to repress through the belief of 'expected conclusions' fueled by what Rory calls > personal epistemology < interesting concept to learn more about.

You also write
Quote:
The people who will attend are already curious and are actively seeking the info knowing already that something is missing from their training.



What has been your experience of the particular people that scoff attendance and the ones that welcome it as an adjunct to their particular training background_ i.e., a description of the people who scoff…their status and background etc.

I also believe that everyone of us on the floor who teaches on the floor to others …that what we do …is the best for self protection …is saddled with a serious responsibility towards the students, who are for the most part dependent on what their teacher says and does.

I could go into some previous example of this I have pointed out on my page, involving teachers 'misguidance'
Which resulted in some students seriously hurt in street situations….but I won't.

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 Post subject: Re: Force Decisions
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:41 pm 
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Chris, which book are you referring to?

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 Post subject: Re: Force Decisions
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:59 am 
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Van,

Sorry - common misunderstanding - you were correct the first time: I am in Canada -- London, Ontario Canada -- nothing as exotic as the real London, although we too have a Thames River...and we're relatively close to Toronto which makes us close to exotic?!? LOL

Funny, the misunderstanding is so easy to have I find I even need to specify London, Ontario here, in London, Ontario....sad, but true.

Nevertheless, with regards to Rory's seminars - on the professional side I've spoken with representatives from Corrections, Police Services, several advocacy groups, and departments of other government agencies which deal directly with enforcement or compliance issues....basically I've approached people who might end up in the front lines of their respective professions.

These people generally seem to have their hands tied by policy, bureauracy, budget or, in the case of organizations which deal with serious threats - fraternity -- and I can respect that...I am, after all, merely a citizen.

I've also approached businesses and one professional association, but where I see value for them they can't seem to get past the suggested martial spin on the titles. Fair enough.

Looking at martial artists it's tough to put a face on apathy, but the trend seems to be anyone who has a lot invested in their current training or discipline is not likely to risk looking like a beginner again. And this observation goes straight across the board including many people from various styles I shall continue to train with and call my friends!

I strongly suspect some of it comes down to fear of the unknown - or - perhaps more to the point: a subconscious fear of having undermined a beloved art one has invested much time, energy and faith in. Tough to spend a lifetime studying one thing only to find it really only works when used against others who study the same thing, or that a mentally challenged person with a severe disability, no training and a pork chop bone can out manouver and even kill you simply by being more motivated or sneaky on the attack.

That's a very tough pill to swallow.

The people who do come out often have a love for their art, but also have had some experiences with real violence (whether direct or indirect) and seek to augment their knowledge and experience.

Some are merely open-minded and curious - last year for instance, we had one fellow who travelled several hours to take part in Rory's two-day seminar -- he was an actor and came down to develop his understanding of violence and criminal behaviour and he went away unscathed yet enlightened.

Indeed, so did we all!

edit: hey Jason, the book is 'Force Decisions: a Citizen's Guide (to) Understanding How Police Determine Appropriate Use of Force'

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 Post subject: Re: Force Decisions
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:00 am 
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Thank you Chris,

As to the 'London' thing…here we see 'prima facie' evidence of 'operant conditioning' at work in the minds of men.

1.
Quote:
These people generally seem to have their hands tied by policy, bureaucracy, budget or, in the case of organizations which deal with serious threats - fraternity -- and I can respect that...I am, after all, merely a citizen.


It is really the same old story. It reminds me of the Hydra:

> The Hydra had the body of a serpent and many heads (the number of heads deviates from five up to one hundred there are many versions but generally nine is accepted as standard), of which one could never be harmed by any weapon, and if any of the other heads were severed another would grow in its place (in some versions two would grow). <

2.
Quote:
I've also approached businesses and one professional association, but where I see value for them they can't seem to get past the suggested martial spin on the titles. Fair enough.


Can you explain this in more particulars?

3.
Quote:
Looking at martial artists it's tough to put a face on apathy, but the trend seems to be anyone who has a lot invested in their current training or discipline is not likely to risk looking like a beginner again. And this observation goes straight across the board including many people from various styles I shall continue to train with and call my friends!


It is really comical when you look at this to realize what gives. Listening to the 'pompous push' of some teachers on the floor…brings on a chuckle of the soul.

First of all, there only very few styles, teachers and classes, from which any student who has joined for the purpose of self protection…though this is denied by many …learns any street tactical know how that would keep him safe, physically, mentally, out of jail, and financially whole.

Secondly, as you write, it is simple human nature to not want to admit to themselves that their style is not a 'complete style' when it comes to the ensnaring of the various tentacle of violence and their unexpected consequences. And Rory really does not belittle any style…he only augments the judicious tactical application of any system's pre-existing optimal tools.

4.
Quote:
I strongly suspect some of it comes down to fear of the unknown - or - perhaps more to the point: a subconscious fear of having undermined a beloved art one has invested much time, energy and faith in. Tough to spend a lifetime studying one thing only to find it really only works when used against others who study the same thing, or that a mentally challenged person with a severe disability, no training and a pork chop bone can out maneuver and even kill you simply by being more motivated or sneaky on the attack.


Very wise observations…yet the majority will say that this may apply to others but not to them individually, as they have been trained more uniquely by the right teacher, in the right way, which 'we would never understand' _ ever hear this pompous remark? And if you were to quiz them on the dynamics of street violence…what answer, if any, do you think you would get?

5.
Quote:
The people who do come out often have a love for their art, but also have had some experiences with real violence (whether direct or indirect) and seek to augment their knowledge and experience.


Very true. It is only when a teacher or student has had an experience with near death, paralysis, or criminal and civil family ruin, that certain concepts will be accepted as critical.

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 Post subject: Re: Force Decisions
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:02 am 
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http://www.amazon.com/Force-Decisions-A ... 1594392439

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 Post subject: Re: Force Decisions
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:42 am 
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Van Canna wrote:
Thank you Chris,

As to the 'London' thing…here we see 'prima facie' evidence of 'operant conditioning' at work in the minds of men.

1.
Quote:
These people generally seem to have their hands tied by policy, bureaucracy, budget or, in the case of organizations which deal with serious threats - fraternity -- and I can respect that...I am, after all, merely a citizen.


It is really the same old story. It reminds me of the Hydra:

> The Hydra had the body of a serpent and many heads (the number of heads deviates from five up to one hundred there are many versions but generally nine is accepted as standard), of which one could never be harmed by any weapon, and if any of the other heads were severed another would grow in its place (in some versions two would grow). <

2.
Quote:
I've also approached businesses and one professional association, but where I see value for them they can't seem to get past the suggested martial spin on the titles. Fair enough.


Can you explain this in more particulars?

3.
Quote:
Looking at martial artists it's tough to put a face on apathy, but the trend seems to be anyone who has a lot invested in their current training or discipline is not likely to risk looking like a beginner again. And this observation goes straight across the board including many people from various styles I shall continue to train with and call my friends!


It is really comical when you look at this to realize what gives. Listening to the 'pompous push' of some teachers on the floor…brings on a chuckle of the soul.

First of all, there only very few styles, teachers and classes, from which any student who has joined for the purpose of self protection…though this is denied by many …learns any street tactical know how that would keep him safe, physically, mentally, out of jail, and financially whole.

Secondly, as you write, it is simple human nature to not want to admit to themselves that their style is not a 'complete style' when it comes to the ensnaring of the various tentacle of violence and their unexpected consequences. And Rory really does not belittle any style…he only augments the judicious tactical application of any system's pre-existing optimal tools.

4.
Quote:
I strongly suspect some of it comes down to fear of the unknown - or - perhaps more to the point: a subconscious fear of having undermined a beloved art one has invested much time, energy and faith in. Tough to spend a lifetime studying one thing only to find it really only works when used against others who study the same thing, or that a mentally challenged person with a severe disability, no training and a pork chop bone can out maneuver and even kill you simply by being more motivated or sneaky on the attack.


Very wise observations…yet the majority will say that this may apply to others but not to them individually, as they have been trained more uniquely by the right teacher, in the right way, which 'we would never understand' _ ever hear this pompous remark? And if you were to quiz them on the dynamics of street violence…what answer, if any, do you think you would get?

5.
Quote:
The people who do come out often have a love for their art, but also have had some experiences with real violence (whether direct or indirect) and seek to augment their knowledge and experience.


Very true. It is only when a teacher or student has had an experience with near death, paralysis, or criminal and civil family ruin, that certain concepts will be accepted as critical.


Agree 100%. Even established students with long time study will emotionally attach themselves to their style, their sensei, and their ryu and assume it has all the answers. After 21 years for me I've heard a lot of this even from some very proficient uechi karateka. I've done some cross training and some back yard boxing with a 22 year old son(6'3 1/2 240 +) and have been humbled a few times. I think we all should "test" what we do occasionally to keep our study honest.

Two years ago the dojo group I train with was broken up and we dispersed into two different uechi dojos. My current sensei is somewhat progressive and has tried to bring in different teachers of uechi for seminars, we do more spontaneous bunkai and he has introduced a new kumite. When seminars are held members of our own association do not attend. My thought is that they feel what we do "isn't uechi" or is not needed because they are already where they need or want to be. I do realize their are a number of reasons for study-do, art, fitness, etc. All valid and I appreciate all of them. It is however a "martial" art and I'd hate to be a 20+ year godan and get my butt kicked or worse some day because I stood in a strong sanchin at the wrong time.

For me, I'll keep training uechi, look to other styles to expand my ideas, and get humbled now and then.


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 Post subject: Re: Force Decisions
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:20 pm 
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Josann
Quote:
My current sensei is somewhat progressive and has tried to bring in different teachers of Uechi for seminars, we do more spontaneous bunkai and he has introduced a new kumite.


That's Ok to do, of course, as long as one understands that it all goes to 'the Uechi tool box' unless some very specific street tactical concepts are practiced and understood.

A most excellent 'tool box' of refined and constantly sharpened tools is, of course, critical, and Uechi Ryu, done well and efficiently…provides us with them…no questions about it.

But then
Quote:
When seminars are held members of our own association do not attend. My thought is that they feel what we do "isn't Uechi" or is not needed because they are already where they need or want to be.



Two things here to think about:

1. Human nature does not change, we only think it does…i.e., when another teacher is brought in for seminars and teaches new bunkai and kumites, he is doing his own interpretation of Uechi in some way, and this is 'resented' deep inside by some others, for the different views presented, matters not who they might be, especially by the ones who might have trained in Okinawa or under some well respected teacher in the states, who have the human tendency to feel that nobody else _really knows much real Uechi anyway.

Very common human trait and one to be constantly considered. They will think or you will be told outright that what they practice is Karate -do _ and you or the others don't…

2. As to what they do that isn't Uechi…when the association members expect to do Uechi in the conventional sense, I can understand the reticence in attending.

Again, Human nature, the tendency is to subconsciously feel they are better than that…and what they are being asked to do is a waste of time.
Quote:
I do realize their are a number of reasons for study-do, art, fitness, etc. All valid and I appreciate all of them. It is however a "martial" art and I'd hate to be a 20+ year godan and get my butt kicked or worse some day because I stood in a strong sanchin at the wrong time.


~~~

I think the better approach, is the neutral approach _ although not a guarantee…in the sense that the various teachers who are invited for seminars, should be told to concentrate, if they have those skills, to teach the various Uechi concepts as they might apply tactically, in the various ways, as a Rory will do as an example, against, say, the most encountered habitual acts of physical violence a person is apt to be exposed to in today's world…

...a good start would be the 36 HAPV of Patrick McCarthy.

But it goes much beyond that when you think of the unexpected consequences of anything we may do or not do on the street. This is specialized knowledge of the specialist who has been there many times and has made studies of them.

To always remember, as you well know, is that what we will do under the 'amped up' moments of a street fight...is always what we have done the most of…technique wise and tactically wise..when training on the dojo floor.

The primal brain will allow us to respond efficiently only with what has been deeply programmed, provided is mostly congruent with what our hard wired survival instincts decide we will do once triggered. It will however also make us respond with inefficient, dangerous methods/techniques , if practiced for a very long time,such as trying to stand your ground in sanchin, when you should be moving, as you pointed out.

The conscious mind will take a back seat…reasoning seems to disappear.

Teachers like Rory do not threaten any of us Uechi 'tool box' practitioners…he just shows you how to best put them to work under circumstances we have never experienced…instead of relying on assumptions that normally program in our training on the floor.

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 Post subject: Re: Force Decisions
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:31 am 
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Van Canna wrote:

2.
Quote:
I've also approached businesses and one professional association, but where I see value for them they can't seem to get past the suggested martial spin on the titles. Fair enough.


Can you explain this in more particulars?



Certainly, two of Rory's seminars: 'Logic of Violence' and 'Conflict Communications' are highly tranferable to other areas.

'Logic of Violence' for instance, doesn't necessarily deal with violence - rather it examines, quite deeply, what motivates criminals and how they think. The connection with violence becomes obvious very quickly, but the methodology Rory teaches to get into the head of a criminal can just as easily be applied in a practical setting - like say, a retail environment to avoid shop lifters or hold-ups.

And 'Conflict Communications' deals with the root causes of conflict -- which can include simple conflict such as mere dissagreement and works right up to complex conflict at the level of nation vs. nation. Knowledge of this nature is just as useful in the boardroom at work as it is on the mean streets. I refer back to what I learned taking this seminar often when I am dealing with clients and employees and I'm looking forward to a refresher next week!

Anyway, In an effort to find participants I contacted businesses about attending these seminars, but found most people hesitant because of the connection with MA.

Also, adding to one of Josann's observations - I too find members of the local schools/associations I attend simply do not to come out to these events - even when they support them in other ways!

Actually, one of Rory's supporters here (if you're reading this hi John) recently did a poll in which his student body requested more SD seminars, but when he began hosting them he found attendence did not match the results of the poll -- as in people just weren't coming out!

So I find we get enough people attending, but they come as individuals from many different places.

Curious.

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 Post subject: Re: Force Decisions
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:59 am 
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Thanks Chris,

Indeed strange when you think of how pervasive the power of prejudice saturates our personality structure in so many subtle ways…

Our prejudices lie lurking at the bottom of each of us subterranean minds where they slowly ooze up and color our thinking without our knowing it.

And it pays to understand that when we deal with certain groups of people, such as you describe, you will find yourself up against the 'personality cluster concept' _i.e, their likes/dislikes _ attitudes_ viewpoints_ their prejudices_ coming in clusters as grapes come in bunches.

Take business organizations, as an example, you can predict their negative views of martial arts and the people who engage in their practice, simply by the type of people who make up a business organization. One of the reasons why, at a basic level, when applying for a job…you never should disclose that you hold rank in some martial art, and that you presently practice it.

And members of local schools/associations that do not to come out to these events, belong to their own particular personality cluster of diffidence and internal fears of the alter ego taking blows thereby resulting in falling off their carefully crafted martial pedestals.

It is also important to realize that these groups above are guided by a strong sense of self interest, the impenetrable wall.

When these groups realize, due to some prejudicial reason oozing up without their even realizing it, that any decision to go with Rory in a business setting, or members of martial arts organizations, in attending a seminar…that their collective and individual self interest may be at stake_ no matter how skillfully you may argue the benefits of Rory's seminars, you will never be able to convince them otherwise …as their mental wall has become all bricked up and it has become impenetrable.

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 Post subject: Re: Force Decisions
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:32 am 
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Van Canna wrote:
Thanks Chris,

Take business organizations, as an example, you can predict their negative views of martial arts and the people who engage in their practice, simply by the type of people who make up a business organization. One of the reasons why, at a basic level, when applying for a job…you never should disclose that you hold rank in some martial art, and that you presently practice it.



This is interesting -- I wonder if the bias is more positive among recruiters with MA backgrounds....or is it simply best to leave one's personal life out of an application altogether?

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 Post subject: Re: Force Decisions
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:03 am 
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Quote:
This is interesting -- I wonder if the bias is more positive among recruiters with MA backgrounds....or is it simply best to leave one's personal life out of an application altogether?


Look at the expression on people's faces, anyone you meet, after you let on that you are a 'black belt' in some karate style. What do you think they are thinking? Most of them will have negative thoughts and feelings of some sort towards you, and you will be talked about behind your back.

I would try to leave most of 'personal life' out of application for employment and interviews...although there will be 'probing' about it, so as to get a 'handle' on who you really are and if you fit in with the organization.

Put yourself in the shoes of the interviewer,representing the organizational structure you want to be part of...then imagine what it is he would like to hear about your personal life...

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