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 Post subject: Thoughts
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:12 am 
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Rereading 'Okinawan Karate' by Bishop I read the following description of Ryuei Ryu Sanchin.

In Ryuei Ryu Sanchin the basic kata is virtually the same as that of Goju-ryu…the feet are held straight without the toes being turned in.

Nakima (Sensei) told me pigeon toeing `makes the Sanchin stance unnatural and
impairs maneuverability.'

Whilst doing Sanchin the breathing is natural breathing out with a sharp hiss on striking, your breathing should be undetectable; the proper time to attack is when your opponent is exhaling, as he will not be,able to move or dodge out of the way.

Always try to dodge an attack either to the rear of the side, never use strength
while blocking in combat

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Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:58 pm 
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Thanks for the post, Victor. As always, you're a wealthy source of interesting topics and thoughts.

Victor Smith wrote:
Rereading 'Okinawan Karate' by Bishop I read the following description of Ryuei Ryu Sanchin.

In Ryuei Ryu Sanchin the basic kata is virtually the same as that of Goju-ryu…the feet are held straight without the toes being turned in.

Nakima (Sensei) told me pigeon toeing `makes the Sanchin stance unnatural and
impairs maneuverability.'


Interesting thought. However, this misses the reasoning behind the "pigeon toeing."

Sanchin is a dynamic stance. Its essence exists even in movement. The "pigeon toeing" is a device akin to the cocking of a trigger. Uechi Ryu for example is famous for its front-foot kick. No other style I know of emphasizes it. The only way to do this kick with any kind of power is to store energy like a spring by toeing in. When lifting the front leg, that energy can subsequently be released in a kick.

Toeing in can also serve to help grab the floor the way a bug can land on glass. By toeing in, grabbing, and then toeing out, one can grip the floor. This is important for a shallow stance.

Toeing in can also add stability. When doing the more relaxed renoji dachi, one can indeed move more freely. However there's much more "give" in the support structure.

Thus to the advanced Sanchin practitioner, toeing in and toeing out are all part of the same sanchin dachi continuum.

Victor Smith wrote:
Rereading 'Okinawan Karate' by Bishop I read the following description of Ryuei Ryu Sanchin.

{snip}

Whilst doing Sanchin the breathing is natural breathing out with a sharp hiss on striking, your breathing should be undetectable; the proper time to attack is when your opponent is exhaling, as he will not be,able to move or dodge out of the way.


Actually this is a position that I think both Van and I agree on. It's pretty much all there. It goes much deeper than that, but... You can't go wrong starting from that point of view.

Victor Smith wrote:
Rereading 'Okinawan Karate' by Bishop I read the following description of Ryuei Ryu Sanchin.

{snip}

Always try to dodge an attack either to the rear {or} the side, never use strength
while blocking in combat


I partly agree.

Going back is an option, but often isn't the best option.

Going to the side is a good option, but not the only option.

Going forward or rotating around the attacker are two superior responses not discussed.

Pre-empting a known attack is a *much* smarter response, but is more difficult to pull off and/or get away with.

The best response of all is not being there in the first place.

And I never say never, but... using strength while blocking in combat is usually not smart. In fact "blocking" in general is not smart. And for the record, "uke" doesn't translate as "block"; it translates as "receive." That is a whole other kettle of fish.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:26 am 
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Location: Derry, NH, USA
Bill,

Thank you, you have given me a lot to think about.

My cancer has been declared cured; my treatment is ended andd a PET scan did not show anything.

Since January I have developed Myasthenia gravis is a neuromuscular disorder characterized by variable weakness of voluntary muscles, which often improves with rest and worsens with activity. They say it is unrelated to my cancer and was the reason for my PET scan. My speech il hard to hard to understand, my balance is gone, my fine motor control is shot (for example this taken me 5 times as long to write) .

About all I have left is poor Sanchin and I stagger though the rest. But I won't give up.

Treatment hasns't worked so far and they want to perform a lumbar pujncture to see if anything else is worong, but my plateletts have been too low a reult of my chemotherapy.

Class is taught by senior students but I direct things and can stilll put them down.

I am on disability and not working as I won't drive.

My thinking is unimpaired. I am learning a lot about being impaired, it is humbling.

Thank you,

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Victor Smith
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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:35 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Victor

Please keep posting. We enjoy how you stimulate our thoughts.

My biomedical engineering department had a specialty in neuromuscular junction research, and I took an advanced experimental physiology lab. So I am familiar with myasthenia gravis. I'm sorry for your new health burden, but am heartened and inspired by your spirit.

Never ... give ... up!!!!!!!

I look forward to your next posts.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:27 am 
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Quote:
...the proper time to attack is when your opponent is exhaling, as he will not be,able to move or dodge out of the way.


I would tell the one who wrote that....well...good luck :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:30 am 
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Victor,

All the best and keep fighting _friend.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:01 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Quote:
...the proper time to attack is when your opponent is exhaling, as he will not be,able to move or dodge out of the way.


I would tell the one who wrote that....well...good luck :lol:

Hello, Van!

This is ingrained in you, and you don't even recognize it for what it is. This classic photo comes to mind...

Image

There it is - the essence of Seisan, illustrated in a classic boxing match. The "attack the attack" principle of our Seisan (and also in the Fuzhou Suparinpei) is something that takes Pavlovian-like conditioning [1] to pull off, but we indeed do that.

Ring the bell anyone? ;)

- Bill

[1] - In the combat literature, Grossman uses the expression "operant conditioning". It's what the military uses to get "normal" men to kill in combat.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:21 pm 
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Bill, you wrote
Quote:
Hello, Van!

This is ingrained in you, and you don't even recognize it for what it is. This classic photo comes to mind...


Ok…. I'll play>>> :D

Not at all my friend, it is you who did not recognize the point I was trying to make. Of all people I thought you surely would have gotten it.

But let's take this by numbers:

1. First of all I have been arguing for years on end _ the 'attack the attack' programming being present in our advanced kata, whereas others have argued the 'block and counter' instead. Good luck with that.

And I also have used the operant conditioning argument forever in my discussions on my forum and you know it. From my recollection I was the first guy on the forums to buy Grossman book and discuss the concept.

~~

Furthermore, attacking the attack, is not the very best way to prevail in a fight…I have also argued this point constantly and you know it.

The very best way to learn karate is to develop a sense of an impending attack, then move first to pre-empt it, just like the Samurais were able to do.

You attack the opponent's intent to attack …not necessarily his physical attack…you should never allow an opponent to move first.

You may recall how Laird was able to prevent harm to his family, using this concept, when cornered in an underpass in Canada_ Ring a bell?

Let's see…who else that we both respect says the same thing? Here is Rory
Quote:
Move first. A technique for closing the distance and neutralizing the threat when I have the opportunity_ is to move first.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:25 pm 
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2. Now…The words I quoted above clearly stated that "the proper time to attack is when your opponent is exhaling"

I saw nothing suggesting the proper time to attack is when the opponent attacks, that is, unless I have missed something. So my tongue in cheek reply addressed attacking the exhale implication.

And let's us look at this again
Quote:
...the proper time to attack is when your opponent is exhaling, as he will not be, able to move or dodge out of the way.


Sure… a real street fight is fast and explosive, similar to a car wreck_ but we should train and wait for an exhale because the opponent, then, will be frozen there unable to move? Oh man… :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:28 pm 
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Then there is the very important aspect of controlled breathing that is the standard mostly followed when applying force or transferring force in sports or in most karate systems. It is the act of breathing out when applying force.

The act of breathing out engages the abdominal muscles, the diaphragm, and the muscles of the pelvic floor.

When these muscles contract, the core of the body is strengthened and even the transition between moves becomes easier.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:15 am 
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Agree with Vann, ... If someone tries to kick me I'm taking the legs out.. If someone is a good puncher, they won't be for long!! I want their best weapons, and I want them Yesterday!! Then I will play with them... :D :D :D But I do agree with Bill about the "operant Conditioning"... It's not like the USMC didn't spend $160,000 to make me into what they wanted... And probably about $500 to program Vann....(Hey, you have to figure in inflation for so many years!!!)...Hahahaha JK..Sensei!!! LOL :D :D :D

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:39 am 
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Van

Very often we both argue best when we argue each other's points. So I'm not sure I'm disagreeing with your thinking when I make the following points.

Van Canna wrote:
And let's us look at this again
Quote:
...the proper time to attack is when your opponent is exhaling, as he will not be, able to move or dodge out of the way.


Sure… a real street fight is fast and explosive, similar to a car wreck_ but we should train and wait for an exhale because the opponent, then, will be frozen there unable to move? Oh man… :lol:

Nope...

In both comedy and in fighting, timing is everything.

No it isn't waiting for the exhale to attack. It is attacking the exhale.

Pavlov's dogs were able to salivate before the food got there. He could make them respond to the bell instead of the food, and be salivating before the food had arrived.

Classical conditioning is about training an involuntary response to a stimulus. In Pavlov's experiment, it was salivating. Operant conditioning is about training a voluntary response to a stimulus. In Seisan we train over and over and over again for our attack to be cued by the intent to attack. The same goes with basic training in the military (per what our Marine friend here is describing).

If my Rhodesian Ridgeback isn't salivating before his dinner arrives, he'll choke on his food. If we wait for the attack to be launched before responding, we will be hit.

In comedy as in fighting, timing is everything.

Image

Woof woof!

For the record on Muhammad Ali... He trained himself to respond to the cues before the technique. In his first fight with Frazier, he was decked by a left hook. For his next two fights, he trained himself to jab every time his opponent planted his front foot. In doing so, he was able to thwart Frazier's hook before he could get it fully launched. Same with Foreman. He studied how Foreman absolutely dismantled both Kenny Nortan and Joe Frazier. That perfect shot above may have been luck... if you define luck as the combination of preparation and opportunity. Stimulus, response. Stimulus, response. Stimulus, response.

Nite nite, George Foreman!

Image

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:28 pm 
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Ok...one thing at a time :)

Again, I have been arguing the 'operant conditioning' [OC] concept for years so no disagreement there. But we need to be careful of what we 'condition to operate'. I have tried to drive this point home for years…as they say 'garbage in/garbage out' …

Now going back to the original post by Victor
Quote:
Rereading 'Okinawan Karate' by Bishop I read the following description of Ryuei Ryu Sanchin.

In Ryuei Ryu Sanchin the basic kata is virtually the same as that of Goju-ryu…the feet are held straight without the toes being turned in.

Nakima (Sensei) told me pigeon toeing `makes the Sanchin stance unnatural and
impairs maneuverability.'

Whilst doing Sanchin the breathing is natural breathing out with a sharp hiss on striking, your breathing should be undetectable; the proper time to attack is when your opponent is exhaling, as he will not be,able to move or dodge out of the way.


Bill replied
Quote:
Interesting thought. However, this misses the reasoning behind the "pigeon toeing."


I agree, and add that this also misses the reasoning behind the " natural breathing out with a sharp hiss on striking"...again unless I have missed something in the post.

The key word is "on striking" which means to me that the sharp hiss will be at the exact moment of the completion of the strike, i.e., on target. This is how I see it.

The question is when does the natural breathing out during the strike actually begin so as to be noticed in time for a counterattack?

Does it begin at the start of an attacking move and how long does it last, enough so that one has the time and space to detect it and to 'attack' the exhale? Or will one notice this sharp hiss just as he is struck?

From what I read it looks like the out breath sharp hiss is recommended upon impact with the target. If so you would be attacking the exhale upon being hit. Doesn't make sense to me.

But then again, I might have missed something in the quote. Feel free to enlighten.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:38 pm 
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And who says that upon an exhale a person will not be able to move or dodge out of the way ?

On the contrary_ The act of breathing out engages the abdominal muscles, the diaphragm, and the muscles of the pelvic floor.

When these muscles contract, the core of the body is strengthened and even the transition between moves becomes easier.

The exhale is the standard mostly followed when applying force or transferring force in sports or in most karate systems. It is the act of breathing out when applying force.

If in fact it were true that upon an exhale a person will not be able to move or dodge out of the way then in all the sports I have participated, such as soccer, rowing, shot putting and tournament fighting_ I must have frozen still everytime I exhaled sharply in the continuous motion of applying different types of force called for by those sports.

Maybe the point that was missed, was the assumption that in exhaling sharply, tension is created, the kind of tension that could cause inability to move or dodge out of the way in some people.

This might help
Quote:
Lets look at other physical activities outside of martial arts and see how they use sharp exhales of breath. It is very common throughout the sporting world to use a sharp exhale to generate power and strength.

Notice, I said “power and strength” not “tension”.

If you watch tennis, you will often hear players “grunt” as they hit the ball.

This is the same principle as they use the grunt to generate power. But as the racket connects with the ball, do they freeze like a bronze statue (or gargoyle depending on your perspective)?

No. The racket is accelerated through the point of contact and comes to rest naturally well past the contact point. The tennis player uses this grunt, to help generate movement, not tension. If they tensed, they would not be able to move.


It is common for many karate-ka to think and teach that exhaling is all about producing tension. Well, true to a point.

The truth is that if you train to sharply exhale at the moment of force transfer, such as in a strike, even if you tense up [kime] you will only be tense for a fraction of time _ not enough to impede your movements or dodge attacks_

That means that way over 90% of our exhalation is actually used (like in every other sport/physical activity) to generate movement. NOT to generate tension of the kind that would affect subsequent quick motion.

And again, and again_ The act of breathing out engages the abdominal muscles, the diaphragm, and the muscles of the pelvic floor.

When these muscles contract, the core of the body is strengthened and even the transition between moves becomes easier
_

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:56 pm 
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And by the way...I always thought that it is better to attack when the opponent inhales as opposed to when he exhales...here's the reason
Quote:
Inhaling hampers movement and power, while exhaling assists movement and maximizes power. In combat, we are most vulnerable during inhalation, and critically vulnerable if accompanied by dysfunctional breathing patterns.


http://arvigarus.bravehost.com/practice_A002.htm

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