Kumite

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Kumite

Postby Victor Smith » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:53 pm

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Re: Kumite

Postby TSDguy » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:03 pm

That stance is really interesting. They're using almost a "rock-a-way" shoulder block which lets the front leg kicks come easily and protects against punches, and are hunched over with their hands low to prevent take downs.

It would never hold up against a modern western style attack, but it's a really creative and effective solution to the attacks they're using against each other.

The biggest weaknesses in a "street fight" would be against western style attacks; it's WIDE open against wrestling or even a football tackle and I think it would really struggle against an aggressive flurry of boxing punches. I've seen it hypothesized on this site before that styles develop based on how they're likely to be attacked. And presumably boxing, wrestling, and football were not concerns to these guys.
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Re: Kumite

Postby Bill Glasheen » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:14 am

Thanks for posting this, Victor!

@TSDguy

Don't over-interpret what you see here.

Kumite being practiced to decide on rules and methods for first Uechi-Ryu Championship.

It isn't self defense. It isn't full contact. This is sport and nothing more. It's a sophisticated game of tag. And the rules pretty much are dictating the stance.

Pay close attention. It doesn't take long before you realize the following;

  • No head shots.
    ...
  • No techniques below the waist or to the back.
    ...
  • No throws.
    ...
  • Points are awarded for getting clean kicks or punches to the front of the torso.

Finis origine pendet - The end depends upon the beginning.

And FYI... The rules they now use today are very different.

  • Head shots allowed.
    ...
  • Leg kicks allowed.
    ...
  • Grabbing and take-downs allowed.
    ...
  • Half points are given for clean shots to torso (front or back) or head.
    ...
  • Full points are given ONLY when you have control of your opponent (via grabbing or takedown) before executing a clean shot.

The stances used for these rules are quite different. No hunching of the shoulders. No head within range. Stances are pretty much upright - just like classic Uechi Ryu.

But... that is STILL sport fighting.

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Re: Kumite

Postby TSDguy » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:13 am

That's not what I saw on a first glance, it looked like "MMA" rules, and that's fine, I'm not saying they should react to anything other than what they get because they did fine.

Let me watch this again, brb.

Ya I definitively disagree, they were punching to the face and attempting take downs. And to boot, they did a good job of defending those. Watch it again, BG.

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Re: Kumite

Postby Bill Glasheen » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:37 pm

OK... I must have stepped up to get a soda or something during that part.

We weren't there so we can't know exactly what it was. But it looked like fellow on left throws a flying front kick, lands, and slips. Fellow on right capitalizes by pouncing and throwing an ippon. It doesn't look like an intentional takedown. But I could be wrong... In the current rules, that would be an ippon, and awarded a full point. I think the most important point I'm trying to make is this was a few guys getting together way back, and figuring out what the rules would be. Somebody got a camera and filmed the boys going at it.

Marty Dow worked out in Shinjo Seiyu's dojo. Shinjo Kiyohide is his son, and was 9-time all-Okinawa champion. In the Kadena dojo when papa Shinjo arranged a sparring match (Marty san, you will spar Kiyohide today!) they had two rules. You can't punch to the head, and you can't kick to the groin. But that doesn't mean you can't kick to the head and punch to the groin. :twisted: Kiyokide san developed his lateral hip flexibility to the point that (like a very few of my students), he could essentially fall asleep in his lateral splits. If that's the rules these boys are following, then it explains why the guys are standing there with their hands down and heads exposed. Most of those fellows couldn't kick above the chest. They'd never get away with that sheet facing Kiyohide.

Takamiyagi Shigeru is allegedly one of those guys fighting. Interesting... I met him and worked out with him for a week on Thompson Island circa 1984. He was a great karateka and had some great ideas about improving the "dynamic range" of our Uechi system. But he was quite a bit more portly than any of those gentlemen. Hence that film must have been in the 1960s.

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Re: Kumite

Postby Glenn » Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:52 am

Bill Glasheen wrote:Kumite being practiced to decide on rules and methods for first Uechi-Ryu Championship.

Do we know if that tag is correct? I have this clip on video, I believe it is part of Alan Dollar's Historical Video Series, and I thought it was just some dojo kumite. I do not recall any mention of it being to decide championship rules, although to be honest it has been a few years since I watched it. If I get the chance I will try to watch the series over the next couple of days to see what it says.
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Re: Kumite

Postby Stevie B » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:24 pm

It is.. It is Takimiyagi Sensei on top at this point and Seiki Irei Sensei sparring when young..




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