SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Stevie B » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:04 am

I understand what you mean Van.. But here's the thing... What Tsukasa is showing there is what he teaches (or his Father teaches ) the general public.. Doesn't mean that is what he's taught Tsukasa or Graziano Sensei.. I don't know.. On the Kadena side we had what we showed in public and what we practiced as a group, and then there were things that we practiced in a very small group after the Dojo doors shut..Personally I've used the knee thrust very successfully to larger men in Bar fights... I really don't know Mr. Pomfret, or his skill level, so I won't say that would be the best defense against him.. But it is a good beginners tool to understand the basics about distance and reaction and wieght balance.. They are only tools.. :) Pain is the only real teacher of what works or not... :lol: :lol:




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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Stevie B » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:35 am

BTW Josann... If you don't recognise the defender in the video, his name is Tsukasa Gushi... He is Gushi Sensei's son.. LMAO! :lol: :lol: :lol: Joe's going to kick your butt next class!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:




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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Rick Potrekus » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:31 am

Were into it now!
What is not discussed is that what is shown to the public is just that (Omote) public knowledge.
We have to understand Okinawan culture. There is a path---Omote (public knowledge), Chuden (the middle stage of training), Okuden (understanding, advanced technique) and for those above the rest Oyo (creation). As I was taught by Itokazu Sensei, most foreign students were taught only Omote (public knowledge or the obvious). A few who were accepted as family as fist warriors (kobushi Sha) were given truly advanced training. In so far as Uechi Ryu "Tosh" stated that one he knew and highly respected was James Thompson. There were others , Peter Kellogg and like Mark Brelsford who trained on Okinawa for a long time and established that bond. This is not to lessen any advanced Uechi Ryu Sensei, just repeating an observation.
If we look at most of the common Bunkai, they are simply Omote or a demonstration. They in no way display the myriad of possibilities that are contained within the Kata. Most are basic and obvious, they do not reveal that the Kata gives us direction and movement.
As Bill stated in another thread we must look at the movements between the movements. When asked about what stance we should be in "Tosh" would often say we don't do stances we do foot work. The Kata teaches precise foot work. Once learned it should be fluid not stiff. Take Kanshiwa for instance and the rear turn after the Shuto. Is simply a strike and a turn or a strike grapple and throw?
I have heard some Sensei state that they don't spend much time on Ho Jo Undo. Well were does the student get the "10,000" reps to accomplish a technique. If you think about it, if a student actually knows Ho Jo Undo, the student can be taught any of the techniques in each Kata.
Back to the thread: Take time to look at the opening movement as offensive in a sense. Look for the grappling applications. I have become convinced that Uechi Ryu is all about Osai or Irimi to redirect and enter.
We who are not comfortable in Omote are asking questions, looking for answers and going forward. That is making this forum very interesting and stimulating.
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Van Canna » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:00 am

Thank you, Rick and Steve…good points.
What Tsukasa is showing there is what he teaches (or his Father teaches ) the general public..


True enough Steve , it is a generalized application of the lines of force and directions of the kata, and not the likely response action to be used in a real fight, to answer the question as posed by Robb.
I really don't know Mr. Pomfret, or his skill level, so I won't say that would be the best defense against him.. But it is a good beginners tool to understand the basics about distance and reaction and wieght balance.. They are only tools..


What I meant to say, Steve, was that in the many MMA fights I was fortunate to attend, as a corner man for our Joey Pomfret, an excellent Uechi/BJJ fighter, I saw all the experienced mixed martial arts fighters, not relying on knee strikes or front kicks to stop a big powerful opponent's momentum during a shoot.

Reason being such big strong opponents would charge the kick or knee and lift the kicker right off the floor slamming him into the ropes or mat.

The very best defenses I saw were the sprawl or sidestepping and spinouts as per the coaches admonishing their fighters not to contest the opponent's power charges head on, but use footwork instead to place them in a vulnerable position for KO or submission holds.

Rick writes
They[bunkai] in no way display the myriad of possibilities that are contained within the Kata. Most are basic and obvious, they do not reveal that the Kata gives us direction and movement. "Tosh" would often say we don't do stances we do foot work. Back to the thread: Take time to look at the opening movement as offensive in a sense. Look for the grappling applications. I have become convinced that Uechi Ryu is all about Osai or Irimi to redirect and enter.


Most excellent description of the effective concepts that make Uechi Ryu so beloved by so many.

Again, as all will certainly agree, the problem that can develop is when practitioners habituate to what can be seen as 'demonstration mode'_ constantly…getting stuck in 'reactive' vs. 'proactive' defense.
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Van Canna » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:21 am

Here is a great defense against the shoot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYKrhfFo8Qo
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Josann » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:45 am

Stevie B wrote:BTW Josann... If you don't recognise the defender in the video, his name is Tsukasa Gushi... He is Gushi Sensei's son.. LMAO! :lol: :lol: :lol: Joe's going to kick your butt next class!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Yes I know who he is. His attacker is Makoto Fukimoto who has been at Joe's dojo many times with Gushi sensei. I'd guess this video is 10 years old or so and I'd guess that the way the kumite is performed has evolved. I can assure you that Makoto is the real deal and is better now than in this video.

Yes, and I hope Joe kicks my butt, that's one of the reasons I train with him!
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby robb buckland » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:42 am

"But it is a good beginners tool to understand the basics about distance and reaction and wieght balance.. They are only tools.. Pain is the only real teacher of what works or not..."

Hmmm, I like that !! 8)
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Van Canna » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:57 pm

I second that, Stevie/Robb, because it is so true. So many are so technique obsessed that they miss out on this simple principle.

For example, Robb, in your training with Joe Lewis, I believe you mentioned the same concept that Joe teaches.

And Joe was a master in inflicting pain to his adversaries.

One particular event many of us, from the old tournament days, well remember_ is when Joe knocked out Ed Daniels, the 'King Kong' of Karate [6' 7"...280 lbs] with such power that Daniels was nearly killed by the blow.
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Van Canna » Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:04 pm

Hi Josann,

Yes, my good friend Joe, is not only an extremely skilled, powerful and conditioned Uechi practitioner, but what makes him stand out the most, in my opinion, is the fact that, being a Federal police tactical trainer, he can teach the correct tactical applications of the 'Uechi tools'...a skill that not many of us possess for obvious reasons.
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby robb buckland » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:02 pm

......The Joe Lewis 'draw' for me was mobility.......but the power was without question AMAZING !!

I spoke to Jimmy Maloney (bridgit is training with Dicky Eklund in Chelmsford today) ......................

"The very best defenses I saw were the sprawl or sidestepping and spinouts as per the coaches admonishing their fighters not to contest the opponent's power charges head on, but use footwork instead to place them in a vulnerable position for KO or submission holds.".................

I've noticed most coaches including Tony Blauer, tend to agree on the use of angles vs 'down the pipe'.....I sure like comin 'down the pipe' though, especially after a scatter or scramble step to mentally of balance them !!!

( Ya don't keep students long that way though..lol)
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Stevie B » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:20 am

In the Bunkai we start from getting to a 45 degree.. But who stops there??? :lol: :lol: Hey, get to a 90, better yet, get to a 120!!! If you are on their back, they won't be on your's....
Last edited by Stevie B on Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:07 am, edited 2 times in total.




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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Stevie B » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:23 am

Sort of funny how we were created... We as humans have many vulnerabilities to our rear side, and so much natural Armor on our front..But very few untrained fighters will ever go to the rear! It's normally a frontal assault.. Strange..




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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby robb buckland » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:24 pm

Why do you think it is we attack to the front primarily....?

Ego ? 'a misguided sense of fair play ?
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Stevie B » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:17 am

Not sure.. I think it goes back to Cavemen and Alpha Male thing Robb... It's a good question!I certainly don't advocate attacking someone from behind, but if attacked I don't want to stay in a frontal position.. But that's boxers or anyone will always say get to a 45 degree or better..
Last edited by Stevie B on Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.




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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Stevie B » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:18 am

But I Digress.. It's getting away from where Van Sensei was going, which is a valuble lesson where ever you are..I sometimes think too deeply about things and end up in tangants..But the overall of this thread will effect more to come.. That's important!!




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