RUN-HIDE-FIGHT

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RUN-HIDE-FIGHT

Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:24 pm

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Re: RUN-HIDE-FIGHT

Postby Jason Rees » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:25 am

This matches the training we recieve for an active shooter scenario.
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Re: RUN-HIDE-FIGHT

Postby Van Canna » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:01 am

When it comes to the 'fight' I can see why some people in the commentaries felt a need to have a real weapon as opposed to some useless 'improvised weapon'
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Re: RUN-HIDE-FIGHT

Postby Jason Rees » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:16 am

How about an improvised real weapon? At work I can make a blowgun with 3.5" darts using a chest tube sheath, sponges, and spinal needles. For up close and personal, we've got canes.
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Re: RUN-HIDE-FIGHT

Postby Van Canna » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:36 pm

It's all good Jason...but I try to imagine how a person would react in a real panic situation while feeling cornered like a rat as we see the people trapped in that room in the video.

But _ Most people would be unable to even swing a chair in their state of frozen panic. Some would even think that trying to hit the killer with a flimsy weapon would infuriate him even more.

I have written previously here about a situation I investigated_ where a Vietnam War vet, of all people, working as a supervisor at a factory, sent a woman home for tardiness one day.

Later in the day, the woman's husband_ big tough guy_ shows up at the office infuriated, sails right by the front desk and, after invading the supervisor's office, shoves him hard against the wall stunning him into helplessness.

Next, the husband locks the glass door of the office and proceeds to kick the guy on the floor threatening to kill him.

A bunch of coworkers responded but were overcome by fear and confusion and had difficulty even opening the door to try and rescue the hapless employee.

During my interviews, they all admitted feeling helpless against such a big strong maniac.

There is lots of psychological impairment that takes place in those scary situations that makes people dance around like chickens.

In my own office we had a situation where a guy we denied worker's compensation benefits, showed up with threats of killing everyone.

Management would not call the police on him fearing reprisal.

The next day, this guy kills his wife and kids then puts a bullet into his brain in his run down apartment, Lawrence Mass.

Guess my office people 'lucked out'...
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Re: RUN-HIDE-FIGHT

Postby Van Canna » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:21 pm

Now, Jason, what are the odds that an office/place we work at will experience a mass killing?

Is this possibility enough to warrant a person going to work armed with a gun, just in case?

Some people think not as they posit even if someone has a gun, he wouldn't be able to use it frozen in fear...some of those are reading this right now on this forum.
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Re: RUN-HIDE-FIGHT

Postby Van Canna » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:19 pm

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Re: RUN-HIDE-FIGHT

Postby Van Canna » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:22 am

Look I know this site is for "Prepping" but why are you prepping for the most unlikely of scenarios. Its not like you carry a grounding rod in case of thunderstorms(or do you?). Can it happen to you, yea it might, but preparing for the punch in the face in the bar, a mugger on the street, and a number of other skills learned for every day possibilities can do you better than a full on what if plan, just for a shooter scenario that you don't actually have the necessary skills for. This is a real threat not to be diluted by a delusion of grandeur. Hero fantasy will get you killed, but at least they will say you were a brave soul. Besides how dumb would you feel if you died falling over a potted plant because your shoes were covered in pee wile running to, or from a shooter because you didn't know how to fall.
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Re: RUN-HIDE-FIGHT

Postby Van Canna » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:34 pm

'Force Decisions' is another book, by my good friend Rory Miller, that is chock full of 'golden nuggets' _ He gifted me with a copy of it at summer camp and it has been difficult to put down.

In particular I like section 3…"Dark moments: will you act?"

He tells of how people react in high risk situations…i.e., a single mom with no experience and no martial arts training, jumped on huge inmate to stop a fight…when the inmate threw her across the room, she jumped on him again.

In the same week, a 6' 4" former marine ran and hid when verbally challenged by an inmate.

Rory says that he hasn't found anything that reliably predicts who will run towards danger and who will run away.

He has seen martial arts champions freeze; big buff athletes cower; and tiny nerds turn into tigers.
Loren Christensen, Vietnam vet, retired police officer, karate champion, and prolific author, tells of a time when he got a completely routine radio call_ a report of a large drunk in a tavern, assaulting patrons.

Loren reached for the microphone and froze. For reasons that he didn't understand then and still doesn't understand now, he was frozen with fear. He was close to the call. He had handled things like this dozens of times before.

He could not make himself move.

Knowing what to do is not the same as doing It.


Very poignant indeed.
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Re: RUN-HIDE-FIGHT

Postby MarkNoble » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:54 am

Is it a coincidence that the gunman looks like The Terminator?
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Re: RUN-HIDE-FIGHT

Postby Van Canna » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:34 am

Good question.
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Re: RUN-HIDE-FIGHT

Postby Van Canna » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:01 am

Rory
The adrenaline loop is when you are so afraid that you just keep doing the same thing over and over without regard to whether it is working.

It is easy to say you will act.

When you are scared, when death is looking you right in your face, the older primitive part of your brain takes over. Even if your forebrain knows what to do, the hindbrain may be in charge of your body.

The hindbrain knows only two things_ 1. Death is in the air_ and 2. What you are doing right now hasn't killed you yet. And the hind brain in most people has more than enough power to take over completely.
Often you are thinking very clearly…you just cannot move.

And here is the corollary: sometimes what you know is wrong.


And in a discussion I had with Rory, when meeting him in Boston after camp, the concept of'Mushin' came up…i.e., what is tactically, as well as physically …deeply programmed as a workable response action for Mushin to call upon?
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Re: RUN-HIDE-FIGHT

Postby Jason Rees » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:24 am

I tried posting a long reply last night, and the forum logged me out while I did so (and I lost everything). I'll try again tonight.
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Re: RUN-HIDE-FIGHT

Postby Van Canna » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:53 am

OK, Jason.
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Re: RUN-HIDE-FIGHT

Postby Jason Rees » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:42 pm

Van Canna wrote:It's all good Jason...but I try to imagine how a person would react in a real panic situation while feeling cornered like a rat as we see the people trapped in that room in the video.


I have to keep telling myself, I'm not the average person. What would they do? Judging by what I see on Youtube, not a whole lot. But then, it's been a loooong time since my life was physically threatened. How do I know how I'll react now?

Next, the husband locks the glass door of the office and proceeds to kick the guy on the floor threatening to kill him.

A bunch of coworkers responded but were overcome by fear and confusion and had difficulty even opening the door to try and rescue the hapless employee.

During my interviews, they all admitted feeling helpless against such a big strong maniac.

There is lots of psychological impairment that takes place in those scary situations that makes people dance around like chickens.


I'm so used to being part of a group of not-small guys on shift more than ready to get involved, and having armed security that can respond within 30 seconds.

Now, Jason, what are the odds that an office/place we work at will experience a mass killing?

Is this possibility enough to warrant a person going to work armed with a gun, just in case?


Hasan shot up that readiness group on Ft Hood, what, two years ago? I'd say fairly likely. And, no, not enough apparently, because I know I'd be fried in a court-martial, even if I saved lives.

Some people think not as they posit even if someone has a gun, he wouldn't be able to use it frozen in fear...some of those are reading this right now on this forum.


Meh. I'm not one of those people, and statistics don't match their fantasy.

Look I know this site is for "Prepping" but why are you prepping for the most unlikely of scenarios. Its not like you carry a grounding rod in case of thunderstorms(or do you?). Can it happen to you, yea it might, but preparing for the punch in the face in the bar, a mugger on the street, and a number of other skills learned for every day possibilities can do you better than a full on what if plan, just for a shooter scenario that you don't actually have the necessary skills for. This is a real threat not to be diluted by a delusion of grandeur. Hero fantasy will get you killed, but at least they will say you were a brave soul. Besides how dumb would you feel if you died falling over a potted plant because your shoes were covered in pee wile running to, or from a shooter because you didn't know how to fall.


I gotta ask: are there portable grounding rods? Something I can stick in my pocket? Coat pocket? Waistline? Sadly, there are people who carry guns who probably shouldn't, but this ass-hat seems to suggest that untrained awareness may get you far, but carrying a gun is a death sentence unless you've had S.W.A.T. training.

I would digress, but I can't help thinking that someone criticizing preppers for preparing for unlikely scenarios hasn't talked to too many preppers... they're almost ALL unlikely scenarios.

'Force Decisions' is another book, by my good friend Rory Miller, that is chock full of 'golden nuggets' _ He gifted me with a copy of it at summer camp and it has been difficult to put down.


I have that book. Have you read 'Talking Them Through,' another of Rory's? It's closer to what I have to deal with at work. I haven't found a single book of his that wasn't full of the good stuff. :)

And in a discussion I had with Rory, when meeting him in Boston after camp, the concept of'Mushin' came up…i.e., what is tactically, as well as physically …deeply programmed as a workable response action for Mushin to call upon?


What did you guys come up with?
Last edited by Jason Rees on Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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