Analysis of How to Train for Reality

[Rick Wilson]

You are right Marcus.

I don’t have an argument with Ray’s point.

If any disagreement exists it is between Ray and Mr. McCarthy -- Although I don’t actually think there would be much disagreement over the four mentioned by Ray.

I just know that when doing the drill the more you throw the more stuff sloughs off to leave the simple responses.

Often doing the drill people struggle with what to throw at their partner next and Mr. McCarthy’s list is just a nice place to start.

[Rick Wilson]

On the subject of expert or specialist – whichever is appropriate on these forums is fine by me.

I don’t consider myself an expert in anything – I’m just a guy trying to figure the most efficient and effective way to do things.

Some stuff is working for me and some stuff hasn’t.

[Van Canna]

The bottom line in all these discussions is the simple truth that the only way to check violence in progress, where the victim can neither hide nor flee, is by equal or greater force in a timely manner along the gamut of empty hands to weapons.

As we train and learn, we continue to realize deep inside that this journey is a complex one, and we are nothing more than perennial students despite what we think we know and how we know it.

Learning comes to us in many ways...

Here's one other suggestion...read the fabulous book by Lt David Grossman..."On combat"...and discuss on the forum what you think his concepts teach us.

[Van Canna]

Now still briefly on the subject of 'experts' or 'specialists'...surely there will be questions like...who is this Grossman...what's he got to offer that we already have etc.

What makes this guy an 'expert' to repeat this 'ugly word' to some?

http://www.killology.com/bio.htm

Col. Grossman is a former West Point psychology professor, Professor of Military Science, and an Army Ranger who has combined his experiences to become the founder of a new field of scientific endeavor, which has been termed “killology.”

In this new field Col. Grossman has made revolutionary new contributions to our understanding of killing in war, the psychological costs of war, the root causes of the current "virus" of violent crime that is raging around the world, and the process of healing the victims of violence, in war and peace.

He is the author of On Killing, which was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize; has been translated into Japanese, Korean, and German; is on the U.S. Marine Corps Commandant's required reading list; and is required reading at the FBI academy and numerous other academies and colleges.

[Van Canna]

Something else that needs to be added to the basic list of attacks that Ray brought up...is the 'takedown'...

In many cases, if you are dealing with an enraged opponent, in particular, expect a charge/takedown. This is even more prevalent in the US where kids grow up playing American football.

Again as to 'experts' ...keep in mind that this expression denotes someone possessing a certain 'expertise' in a given field.

An 'expert' usually means someone who is qualified by knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education.

[Van Canna]

Take Mas Ayoob for example, which Maloney and I also trained under for deadly force tactics.

I have mentioned his name very often on the forum, referring to him as an 'expert'…

Let's see what qualifies him

Ayoob has authored several books and more than 1,000 articles on firearms, combat techniques, self-defense, and legal issues, and has served in an editorial capacity for Guns Magazine, American Handgunner, Gun Week, Guns & Ammo and Combat Handguns. Since 1995, he has written self-defense and firearms related articles for Backwoods Home Magazine. He also has a featured segment on the television show Personal Defense TV, which airs on the Sportsman Channel in the US.

While Ayoob has been in the courtroom as a testifying police officer, expert witness, and police prosecutor, he is not an attorney; he is, however, a former Vice Chairman of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL), and is believed to be the only non-attorney ever to hold this position.

His published work was cited by the Violence Policy Center in their amicus curiae brief filed with the U.S. Supreme Court in the District of Columbia v. Heller case, and he himself filed a declaration in another amicus brief in this case.

His course for attorneys, titled "The Management of the Lethal Force/Deadly Weapons Case", was, according to Jeffrey Weiner (former president of NACDL), "the best course for everything you need to know but are never taught in law school."

Ayoob remains an internationally prominent law enforcement officer training instructor. Since 1987, he has served as chairman of the Firearms Committee of the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers (ASLET).

He also serves on the Advisory Board of the International Law Enforcement Educators’ and Trainers’ Association, and is an instructor at the National Law Enforcement Training Center.

[Van Canna]

Here's another 'expert' I am fond of...the writer of some deep reaching articles on human behavior in combat.

Dr. Lewinski is conducting the leading research on human behavior in force encounters. His current focus is on action/reaction parameters, perception, attention & memory and judgment.

His research has been published in national law enforcement publications, websites and e-news lines. This research has been highlighted on 48 Hours Investigates and the BBC's Panorama. His most recent studies involved a technologically sophisticated investigation into the perceptual and psychological factors that impact an officer’s reaction time.

Dr. Lewinski has trained in Goju Karate since 1967. He is a regional director and on the national board of examiners with Goju Kai, Karate Do, U.S.A

[Van Canna]

Being in denial has a way of sneaking up on us when we least expect it, influencing us and manipulation us to believe in false illusions. It preys on our insecurities, our hopes, our dreams, our wants, our needs.

We can find ourselves in a position where we want to believe in the illusion rather than taking a good look at what the reality is and checking out the facts.

We experience this during our lifetime in all kinds of different ways, from all kinds of different people and in many different circumstances.

Denial can show up in so many forms which is why it is difficult to narrow down the characteristics. We can feel like we totally have a handle on things only to find out later that the information that was fed to us by others was either only partial truths or simply lies.

However, we believed them and made decisions and choices for ourselves based on that information that affected our lives, maybe a little positively, but mostly negatively.

Pretty sobering indeed.

[jorvik]

Quote
"Now still briefly on the subject of 'experts' or 'specialists'...surely there will be questions like...who is this Grossman...what's he got to offer that we already have etc.

What makes this guy an 'expert' to repeat this 'ugly word' to some?"

I think that you are missing my point, I don't have a problem with Mr.Grossman being an expert in Psychology, never did have...but does that make him knowledgeable on say Football? of course it doesn't. That is the problem, because somebody uses work by Grossman et al to try to gain credibility. Look at what the person does, be it night club bouncer,policeman whatever and then ask your self what part of his job gives him the skills of a psychologist. It's like with Mr.McCathy, I have no problem with him, but what in his job gives him the knowledge on street crime and basic methods of assault. The borders become grey in these areas and people assume because someone can write about the psychology of a criminal that they have some academic knowledge on the subject.when in truth they don't, it's just an opinion....look at that bouncer we were talking about, the one who looks like a mugger. I have had dealings with bouncers, professionally.....I think I have said this, some of them sell drugs, beat their wives and children.and have killed people, and beaten the crap out of defenceless drunken teenagers....and yet you get them telling you about self defence, giving courses ,writing books..and in this guys case he is telling you the exact opposite of just about every leo who has written about the subject of self defence.
I am not getting at anybody on this forum, or even Mr.McCarthy.....I am just saying, ask the question what does this guy do? what do I know about what he does? can I make a valid judgement based on what I know sufficient to include his ideas in my mindset or, at the least to look at them......with Grossman, yeah sure go ahead I would .but I have no intention of killing anyone just yet, so It may be a bit irrelevant for me.

[Van Canna]

It's like with Mr.McCathy, I have no problem with him, but what in his job gives him the knowledge on street crime and basic methods of assault.

No, I think you are missing the point Ray. Why don't you do what Rick suggested and write directly to McCarthy asking how he arrived at his conclusions?

[Van Canna]

Ray,

For the last time...I am talking about concepts that become useful to anyone in confrontations. Again, we have been down this primrose path before and it is getting tiresome.

As to Grossman

On Combat looks at what happens to the human body under the stresses of deadly battle the impact on the nervous system, heart, breathing, visual and auditory perception, memory - then discusses new research findings as to what measures warriors can take to prevent such debilitations so they can stay in the fight, survive, and win.

Nobody here is interested in 'killing anybody yet' ...

The information and education this research by Grossman imparts on any reader is indeed priceless. Have you read it? Why don't you read it and then post your views of what you read on the forum?

[Stryke]

Ray do you disagree with any part of the HAPV list specifically, or is it just the idea of someone sharing there work and being acknowledged an expert you have issue with?

Because in context of the thread were missing the forest for the trees

[Rick Wilson]

As I said before Mr. McCarthy’s list is a nice reference for those who aren’t sure what to attack with to work from for the drill.

The point of this thread is to discuss ways we can, within our worlds, address the training of self defence realities. Is it possible? What can we do?

If Ray would like to take the discussion in another direction I hope he will show the courtesy of beginning a separate thread on that subject where the issues he wishes to explore can be delved into at whatever depth he wants. I am sure there would be others interested as well.

[Stryke]

But if you can deal with surprise and deal with chaos, the rest of training is cake.

You need to learn how to move someone else's body.
You need to learn how to move yours.
You need to learn how to generate power.
You need to learn where the good targets are and how to hit them with your eyes closed. (Not kidding here. If you can't fight blindfolded you can't fight with blood in your eyes).

That's it, really.

Rorys quote is nice , just because its simplified , its a huge topic violence and self protection , but you need to boil it down

basic fundamentals , orientation and understanding , decision making and ethos , intention and action

all JIMHO

[jorvik]

Quote
"The point of this thread is to discuss ways we can, within our worlds, address the training of self defence realities. Is it possible? What can we do?"

ok, self defence is really easy when you don't attach morals to it. From the perspective of awerness you need to know your threats, you need to know how you will react to these threats, and that can be quite surprising...I can't travel in commercial airliners as it really freaks me out, yet I've been in a plane and done aerobatics and I was totally unphased.so it's not all cut and dried......for the basics you need to be able to move and strike, best accomplished with hook and jab pads, you don't need to use boxing techniques although they are probably the easiest at first, you need to condition yourself to a certain level, for me that is usually 2 to 3 minutes of continuous punching or striking.I do this by using handweights of different weights and I do a 100 punches with each weight and I have 2 different weights, then I do 100 with just my hands, then I use poor bob 2 minute rounds, usually 1 or 2.now that is my base level, when I train harder I up the rounds to as much as 5, it depends a lot on my mood and what I'm doing .if I don't do the gym I do 100 pushups usually in rounds of 20 or 30.I have built up to 80 outright but not in recent years, and 100 situps...............What works? .from personal experience. jab, straight and hook, headbutt knee strike to head, high roundhouse to jaw, back spin kick to head. , punch to carotid sinus , Anything else I haven't tried.oh and I don't believe sticks made of rattan are any good, because when my dog was attacked I hit the other dog with a walking stick made of rattan and it didn't seem to bother it.
other stuff that I do, which I don't know if it would work or not because it hasn't been tested in a confrontation, but I think would work are the hsing i punch that I know, the wing chun punch, which is actually very similar if done correctly....quite a bit of limb destruction techniques and moving bodies from Dumog and based on the centre line principle and a lot of joint locking techniques from Aiki and Chi na.......the real thing is the effort that you put into your training..you need a desperation or fierceness.they both look very similar