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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:16 pm 
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So if the Republican Party were to truly become more moderate...


I'll buy that Republicans need to become more moderate when Democrats lose elections for being too far left. That used to happen. It doesn't anymore. The media feeds the beast that is our bipolar political process. As long as a group of people (gun owners, pro-life, and other social conservatives) find no home in the Democratic Party, they'll find it in the Republican Party, where they will continue to wield influence. If memories are long enough, 2014 will be a shellacking. Personally, I think that's the number one reason the gun issue is being pursued so hard on the left: hopes that memories will fade in two years, and offer some protection to those who supported gun control. In the meantime we're guaranteed a dizzying array of crises, one leading to another, to another, with one Party getting its nose bloodied every step of the way. I'm betting memories will be short.

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Could the Tea Party become an official third party that appears on ballots?


I'm with Bill on this one. The Tea Party has a foot in the door in the Republican Party already. It would be shooting itself in the foot to start from scratch, and strengthen the Party whose methods and results they directly oppose. No, they'll continue to wreak havoc in Primaries.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:04 pm 
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Okay Bill, I'll rephrase to: Where the parties disagree is on what constitutes an equal opportunity. I'm sorry you didn't like my baseball analogy that I invented and has never been used before by anybody to colorfully describe a situation of equal opportunity. I also know that your deep and abiding hatred of baseball and its complete irrelevance to martial arts is blinding you to the beauty of this analogy.

Jason Rees wrote:
If memories are long enough, 2014 will be a shellacking.


People also said Obama would almost certainly lose because of the bad economy, but that didn't happen. I don't thnk people have very long memories. Personally, I'd like them to remember just how terrible this republican-led congress has been, and how they got our credit rating downgraded, but I doubt that will really by remembered.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:30 pm 
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Val

And of course it:

1-Goes without any degree of specificity that the "Republican" congress has been so "terrible." Its simply asserted as fact. Not really that surprising as that is how the Left in general and you in particular conduct arguments.

1A-And of course no mention is made of dead US citizens as a direct result of the Dem Admin, actions and in-actions in its gun walking fiasco and its failure to give the guards in Libya what they asked for. I could go on.

2-That the Dems held BOTH houses almost all Presidents Obama's first term (and for much of Bushes last term) --and currently hold not just one house but the White House as well. So any problems as clearly not the fault of a single party.

3-The credit rating downgrade has no more to do with "republicans" than it does Dems--please recall that that the actions that led to it were VOTED on by most Dems as well---and ONLY the republicaions are doing anything to try and keep spending DOWN.

The fact that the President and his cohorts in the Dem controlled sections have failed to pass a budget in YEARS--something they are required to do BTW. Might be playing a role here. How can anybody get spending in line without a budget? Pretty simple econ here Val-something you, me, and everybody does every month.
The republican side keeps passign budgets and sending them to sit and gather dust on Harry Reids desk.

4-As I recall President Obama has said a number of things he utterly reversed himself on or failed to do---with no comment from the Left.

But as you suggest people often don't have "very long memories."

Such as yourself ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:15 pm 
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... ress-ever/

Oh wait, you don't read links.
Here's a summarized excerpt from it.

They've passed fewer than half as many laws as the next-least-productive conress

Their popularity is equal to the popularity of the US going communist (9%)

They held up the debt ceiling, degrading our credit rating and thus costing the country 18 billion dollars.

They voted 33 times to repeal Obamacare. What a waste of time.

They cost the country $350 million trying to cut a $16 million subsidy

Thomas Mann and Norm Ornstein call it the most dysfunctional congress in 40 years.

Now of course Bill will come in and crow about how wonderful deadlock is, but most people don't feel that way. They won't, however, remember how obstructionist and generally useless this congress has been.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:10 pm 
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Val

I do read links its just the difference between what you claim the links say/support and what they actually say/support were such drastically different things that I was forced to establish a "no-links" policy with you.

I also note that you failed to address any but 1 of points I made above.

Ok, so lets see how you did with that single point.

"They have passed fewer than half and many laws as the next least productive congress"

1-Notice that you focus on the quantity of the laws rather than the quality of laws. Not sure that sheer amount/number of laws passed rationally/logically have anything to do with the quality--therefore this argument goes no-place.

2-How many laws is that? See without something measure it against then a percentage of anything is pretty useless. Its like saying "Valkenar was dishonest only half as many times as he was last week." ;) without numbers its kinda useless as measurement.

3-Since I have already estbalished that quantity over quality is meaningless--this goes my way as well

4-As I think John Kerry said--its most certainly was a Dem--and my paraphrase "sometimes its not what you pass, sometimes its what you keep others from passing."
So don't confuse "passing laws" with all that they do.

"Their popularity is the populariy of the US going communist"

Which does not exclude the DEMS--which you failed to mention the first time around. Which is kinda my point. In any case, your argument here is that leadership should be a popuarity contest and I would point out that many decsions are remarkably unpopular--by your logic then Obamacare should not have happened because it was and remains wildly "unpopular"--Heck his own part requured bribes to pass it and they had to tell everyone that it was not a tax--then when they got to the Supreme Court they THEN called it a tax. And you say voters have a poor memory. ;)

"They held up the debt ceiling and degraded our credit rating"

Folks in the know call that a "bumper sticker fallacy"--you take a really complex subject and reduce it to a vastly oversimplifed statement---"fur is murder, taxation is theft."
In point of fact its much more complex than the fallacy you use.
As single example--part of the problem was caused by the houseing crisis--Fanny Mea and Freddy Mac--which your guy-a fellow Lefty Barny Frank was on national TV telling everyone was solid prior to it going south. Again with the poor memory.

"They voted 33 times to repel Obamacare"

Which they should have--IMO their main function is to carry out the wishes of the people that elected them, not rubber stamp everything the dude in the White House does.
Thus this this argument is non-starter from the get-go. Doing their job as their electorate wishes is part of their function--regardless if you or the president agree with their stance.

"They cost the country.........."

Since when has a Lefty ever cared about the cost of anything? As mentioned prior, you guys haven't passed a BUDGET in years. You folks on the Left are not really cost-benefit kinds of people. But I'll be sure and remind you of this point from now on. ;) Such as the cost per job of the Obama stimulas plan. ;) or the cost of Solyndra and other such boondoggles ;) or the cost of waste, fraud and abuse in various governement program. ;)

"The most dysfuntional"

1-And whose fault is that? I would lay the "blame" on an Imperial President that makes no effort to convience anyone of their plans and simply rules by executive fiat. Forcing wildly unpolpular legislation through by the same kind of political machinations you personally have railed against when someone on the Right does it.

2-"Dysfunction" is often kinda the point of how the process is set up. Its a process function designed to keep too much power from being taken by any group or party. As such its not necessarliy (sp) an unalloyed negative.

So lets re-cap--you dropped every single point I raised save 1, and none of the stuff you did address on that sole point passed even a basic smell-test.

More sturm and drang from the resident Lefty.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:18 am 
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You made some points worth responding to, but I'm too busy these days to want to spend my time arguing against posts so chock-full of ad-hominem. I'll just content myself with knowing that we've got a brand new four years to bask in the advance of progressive liberal policies, because that's what the american people voted for.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:47 am 
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Personally, I'd like them to remember just how terrible this republican-led congress has been, and how they got our credit rating downgraded, but I doubt that will really by remembered.
- Val


I hope they remember how the Senate hadn't passed a budget in... man, I've lost track of how many days it's been since one has been passed. It's been over a thousand, I do believe. I'm sure that had nothing to do with the credit downgrade... or our defecits (which are worse than Greece, btw). I'm sure they'll appreciate their tax increases (the ones the House fought every step of the way). I hope they remember the unemployment rate, the number of people who fell off of unemployment without a job, and who really owns this economy now.

If my hopes pan out, we might really see some change. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:45 pm 
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Jason Rees wrote:
I hope they remember how the Senate hadn't passed a budget in... man, I've lost track of how many days it's been since one has been passed.


That's a very valid criticism. Granted, the senate has stalled because they know the house is going to obstruct anything they want to do, but that's a lame excuse. They still should have passed one, even if the house is certain to shoot it down. As for the downgrade, it's true that there are multiple reasons for it, but having the congress publicly declare that they're willing to have the US default on its debt is a pretty big factor. And in general the dysfunctional polarization is what motivated the change.

As for who owns this economy, there's plenty of blame to go around. I don't think that this is the Bush economy or the Obama economy. Sure, more regulation might've prevented the crash (Bush-era fault maybe), and some better policy might've promoted a faster recovery (Obama-era fault maybe). The fact is, the "Free" in "free-mark capitalism" kinda means the government only has so much influence over the economy. That's why the economy has never been one of my big voting issues.

When it comes to the deficit, fighting wars that cost us trillions is a huge issue that seems to go totally ignored in all the budget discussion. I also think we could realize a lot of revenue (and some cost savings) by legalizing and taxing marijuana (and maybe some other stuff, for that matter).

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:33 am 
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:popcorn:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:34 am 
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Valkenar wrote:
That's a very valid criticism. Granted, the senate has stalled because they know the house is going to obstruct anything they want to do, but that's a lame excuse. They still should have passed one, even if the house is certain to shoot it down.


Oh, the Senate's pretty good at shooting things down or ignoring them entirely. The House has passed a dizzying array of things that the Senate wouldn't let see the light of day.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:34 pm 
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Val

"post chock full of ad hominum attacks"

But that is problem Val--the folks on the Left ALWAYS come up with reasons NOT to have discussions. All the more so when their worldview is being questioned.

Since you brought up ad hominum attacks---in context with "poor memories" I might add.

Please do not "forget" that YOU were the person that posted an offhand remark--sans support about how "terrible" the republicans have been. Does that count as an ad hominum attack?

Then lets look at how you responded to me.

"Oh wait, you don't read links"

Nope......no insinuation or snide suggestion there that could possibly be viewed as an ad hominum attack on me. ;)

Perhaps in additon to a more through examination of your own personal biases and political worldview you might want to take a hard look at your own behavior......just a suggestion.

Plus, you know perfectly well EXACTLY why I dislike "argument by link"--the more so since I explained it--in detail above. My objections to them are not "ad hominm" in any regard.

Please note that an "ad hominum" fallacy is when you attack the person not their arguments---sure I can and was extremely sarcastic--but I spent most of the time in a point by point by point rebuttal of YOUR ARGUMENTS/POINTS--such as they were. As I mentioned, I was very detailed in my responses--your the guy that refused to address them.

You start out with unsupported assertions presented as fact, you take a gratutious swipe at me--knowing perfectly well the history of your/mine/your fellow travlers interactions on this site, you fail to address any of the detailed responses to your POV, then you drop accusations of "ad hominum" attacks, then you run away.

How disappointingly typical of those of the Left.

Oh.....BTW

"advancing progressive liberal polices because that is what the American people voted for"

I beg to differ, in my view what they "voted for" was a incredibly cynical and extremely effective "divide and conquor" strategy with a mainstream media that largely was completely supine or actively partisen for President Obama.
Those "policies" are proving disaterious and will continue to get worse. And in typical fashion you and your fellow travlers will refuse to take any responsibilty for them.

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