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 Post subject: Shuto to Oko
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:49 pm 
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Posts: 569
check this link out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v9qimwoL04

this guy says that the shuto must turn upwards, now I know this is a blow to the carotid synus, but does it work better if you turn it upwards? and conversley if you don't turn it upwards is it less effective?


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 Post subject: Re: Shuto to Oko
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:37 pm 
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Poor lower-body mechanics aside...

As an Okinawan karate practitioner once told me, "Kata is kata; application is application."

The nature of the technique depends a lot on what you are trying to accomplish. If for instance you want to "ring" the radial nerve which goes over the outside of the radial bone, then it makes sense to rake along the length of the forearm instead of hitting on a point. That way you maximize the contact surface of the nerve.

With the carotid sinus, it's probably more an issue of making sure you hit it. Under stress, pinpoint targeting is lost along with fine and complex motor coordination. But if you rake up the neck, you're likely to hit the sinus. And that's where the baroreceptor and chemoreceptor nerve connections lie.

That's the theory anyway...

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Shuto to Oko
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:30 pm 
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ok, suppose you do hit it, btw talk about kata is irrelevant here I just want to know the best way to strike, would you be better hitting it rotating upward or not.I guess that would apply to the arm as well :D


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 Post subject: Re: Shuto to Oko
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:32 am 
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This thing has to be felt out.

With the arms, there are "scooping" moves in our kata before double-thrusting forward. I find I can get a maximum effect on the radial nerve if I use the broad side of my ulnar bones rather than the shutos. Rather than over-describe it, one just has to feel it out. Yes, I end up supinating to get the effect on the radial nerve.

My preference for hitting the carotid sinus is as a setup to another technique. Very few people will drop from it - even if you hit bilaterally. But it will cause someone to get slightly vasovagal (a.k.a. feel faint from hypotension). In other words, you take the starch out of their posture, which allows you to do the next move. Along those lines, there's a movement in Seisan kata coming forward just before the jump back. One day in a class with Rory Miller I saw him do a raking *forward* of the forearm into the neck as an intercepting technique. It was his entry move that allowed him to take subsequent controlling moves as a LEO. Most Uechi people in that class immediately recognized his intercepting motion as a move in our kata that for the longest time just seemed a mystery to us all.

So I guess what I'm saying is that there are several ways to skin this cat. More/longer contact gets a better effect. Any way you can do that from whatever angle will improve your odds of achieving the desired vasovagal effect.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Shuto to Oko
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:41 am 
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Here are some pictures that may help folks visualize what you're trying to "ping."

Image

Image

Image

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Shuto to Oko
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:16 pm 
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Good post Bill...here is one view...

http://www.askthestreetfighter.com/comb ... teries.php

_________________
Van


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 Post subject: Re: Shuto to Oko
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:42 pm 
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this is a clip of some guy getting hit by it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF_jDQUqZj8

The guy throwing the blow doesn't seem to scoop like the other guy did in the firstvideo


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 Post subject: Re: Shuto to Oko
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:40 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Good post Bill...here is one view...

http://www.askthestreetfighter.com/comb ... teries.php

Nice, Van, and thanks.

This guy is a bit of an alarmist, but only a bit. In a healthy male, you can whack on the carotid arteries and sinuses with little if any long-term effect. I have dissected literally hundreds of them in dogs. They are like freaking rubber bands with their innate elasticity. You can't depend on hurting them, unless you have a blade.

However...

Older people can develop hardening of the arteries. If you hit someone who has a hardened carotid artery which has a buildup of plaque, it's theoretically possible to loosen some of that plaque and cause a stroke. And like most such "coming in the front door" health issues, if you break it you are responsible for it.

So yes it is dangerous to be whacking on any random person's carotid sinus. If they happen to have developing vascular disease - and we all eventually get there - then you could cause irreparable harm.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Shuto to Oko
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:44 pm 
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jorvik wrote:
this is a clip of some guy getting hit by it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF_jDQUqZj8

The guy throwing the blow doesn't seem to scoop like the other guy did in the firstvideo

Lucky shot and a rare KO response. But it's theoretically possible.

Just do not depend on this working like that in a fight. If Nature gives you a gift, take it. But proceed with the idea that the response of the vast majority of the population will be subtle at best.

Manny Neves hit me with a near-full-force punch to my neck right on that spot in the sparring part of my godan test. It made my legs kick out, but I got right back up again. And I wisely responded with a barrage. Can't let (a very dangerous) Manny think he bested me you know. ;) Anyhow... in real life you have to follow through or expect a determined attacker not to stop.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Shuto to Oko
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:40 pm 
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Yeah Bill, it's just me looking for those nerve strikes, one shot knockouts..same old same old :) .but I have been floored by a blow there. I'm trying in my own mind to find the probable knockdown strikes, I can think of a couple, punch to the temple, to the solar plexus, liver punch i.e punching straight through the left side of the body, groin slap, donkey bite dead leg.........and blows to the throat ,windpipe......any of them not workable?....your thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Shuto to Oko
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:50 pm 
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I'm not a fan of "magic show" vulnerable spots. They helped a few kyusho people make a living for a while, until MMA fighting put some reality into it all.

Mostly I'm a fan of a handful of reflex points in joint folds which break down a person's structure. Once triggered, it's easier to complete the sentence in whatever way makes sense. Beyond that, I tend to look for mechanically sound techniques that serendipitously hit these "owie points" such as Rory's entering move that has a chance of softening the opponent before trying to take control.

- Bill


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