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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:00 pm 
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Getting off line and 'merging' with the opponent, as Stryke points out…is the way to go in our training drills. We do have some of that in our kata and kumites…but how do we practice it?

Again, imagine the kind of opponent you will be facing…his size/momentum/…

'Contesting the opponent's power' is, sometimes, not a very smart way to fight…because no matter how tough you think you are at the moment, there is a good chance an opponent or multiples_ will be way tougher than you ever hope to be.

Our Hojo undo step off drills are good but they are not practiced enough to understand and program their use under attacks.

I really like the Enshin footwork, because it almost mirrors our moves in Uechi drills and kata… they are done in very simple patterns…easy to assimilate if we work them.

Working them is the key.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-aV5SnnENM

This is mostly what I concentrate on in my classes, along with power counters honed by heavy impact training.

Josann talks about 'system jumpers' …and, as we know, movements must be practiced tens of thousand of times before they will surface automatically…a system jumper simply cannot do this.

It also involves time to break out of bad habits.

So there is much to what Josann describes as 'jack of all trades and masters of none'

In a previous such discussion on my forum, our Raffi Derderian wrote the following
Quote:
Now for the big question.

Where and when will you practice these new footwork methods? You really can't put them in kata. So do they go in the bunkai, Dan Kumite, sparring? It takes a long time to break in and train (and UNtrain) footwork.

How much effort will you put into it? Will you be willing to give up precious kata time in class to do this? Might need to bag Kanshiwa bunkai for a while.

Will you do it on a regular basis? If not, don't bother.

As I have said so many times before, cross training isn't just dabbling in this and that once in a while. The best footwork drills are done against spontaneous punches and kicks. If you really want to keep it honest, clasp your hands behind you back. Really makes you move those feet.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:39 pm 
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You take for example the Uechi tenshin moves from hojo undo. Are they understood as to practical applications? I practice those exercises without the kicks/shokens counters 'fluff'_ I concentrate on the footwork only…why?

Think of them for a minute. They are really nothing but 'spinouts'…something you would learn quickly in such sports that involve tackling in one way or another…football…soccer…etc.

There is something else that needs to be addressed in these 'off the X' concepts…and it is the so called 'take off' [T.O.]

The T.O. must be explosive[think plyometrics] or you will get nailed [tracked] by the opponent.

As I teach it, I bring in the aspect of our sanchin practice, that has the value of programming the muscles in coiling and uncoiling, facilitating 'sprint-offs and 'spinouts' _out of our 'tucks' _

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:25 pm 
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Excellent posts -- comments later but here is the last part of the Kanshiwa takedown bunkai:

http://wpd-rc.com/blog/kanshiwa-takedown-bunkai-part-3/

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:16 pm 
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Good comments from all:

Josann: “It would be a shame to be attacked and get hurt because we did some move we saw in a movie rather that an effective move we have practiced for decades.” And it will drop you into a deep freeze!

Van: “Well when we think of it, the simpler the better, especially when it has been proven over time that the more stuff/styles/techniques we have practiced, the more confusion there will be in response action.”

I had read a magazine a long time ago where a number of martial artists showed what they would do in response to specific attacks and it was excellent. Years later I saw a new version and the response with the least moves was FIVE. How times had changed.

I think when it comes to responses simpler the better.

Now principles can seem complex or sophisticated until learned and once learned they seem so simple you wonder why you haven’t been doing it all along.

Ray raises a really valuable conversation about – do you stay and perhaps have the bad guy and all his buddies lie so well we go to jail. Or does leaving, and as Ray said getting caught on video leaving, make us look like the guilty party?

Josann: “The more I look at "styles" and "systems' the more I see that all good martial arts and combatives have more in common than not.”

Yes look at CQC systems and there is so much in common.

The stories make very clear points!

Marcus: Yes movement is king: “The oponent thinks hes acheiving what hes doing , you get control of the joing mass centre because hes reaching and your base is under his .” I agree completely.

Van: “Where and when will you practice these new footwork methods? You really can't put them in kata. So do they go in the bunkai, Dan Kumite, sparring? It takes a long time to break in and train (and UNtrain) footwork.”

For me Kata is about transitions and never losing the line. If approached in this manner you can find a great deal of the movement you’re referring to,

What do I mean about the transitions and not losing the line.

When learning to write we begin with printing letters.

In fact we may even begin tracing the letters, then we move to working on paper properly lined to help us form the letters, then we get to work without the lines.

But eventually we move from there to cursory writing where the pen never leaves the paper – the transitions are no longer a stop lift the pen and then start again but they flow right on to the next letter.

Maintaining the line is maintaining an imaginary contact.

This is just the way I approach Kata because I find the movement I am looking for when I explore it this way.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:20 pm 
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Rick Wilson wrote:
Excellent posts -- comments later but here is the last part of the Kanshiwa takedown bunkai:

http://wpd-rc.com/blog/kanshiwa-takedown-bunkai-part-3/


Really like the way Rick use the elbow at 1:21 as an entry. Seisan vertical elbow strike. Common move in a lot of systems. My son has trained mma and his school calls the move "answer the phone," and use it as a defensive as well as an offensive move. Also like the use of the forearm as a strike when entering.Safe way to attack the attack, consistent with someting we've done thousands of times and a great example of a useful move to counter the looping punches that are often the first one thrown in a fight or attack.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:21 pm 
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I don't know what Josann means by a system jumper, but I think most of my instructors were skilled in at least two systems. My very first instructor had 5 black belts the highest a 6th dan, and when i think about it I don't really see how you can gain real knowledge without looking at different sources.rather than system you should be thinking in terms of fighting stratagies and attributes.and of course when you look at them then there is a great deal of crossover in the various systems.
Even with instructors I think you should always be open to finding new ones with better knowledge even in the same style, and if you can't get anywhere in a style, and I don't mean grade, then you should be prepared to leave it, really you are responsible for your own development, and also the direction that you want to take it............that is how new styles are developed.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:33 pm 
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jorvik wrote:
I don't know what Josann means by a system jumper, but I think most of my instructors were skilled in at least two systems. My very first instructor had 5 black belts the highest a 6th dan, and when i think about it I don't really see how you can gain real knowledge without looking at different sources.rather than system you should be thinking in terms of fighting stratagies and attributes.and of course when you look at them then there is a great deal of crossover in the various systems.
Even with instructors I think you should always be open to finding new ones with better knowledge even in the same style, and if you can't get anywhere in a style, and I don't mean grade, then you should be prepared to leave it, really you are responsible for your own development, and also the direction that you want to take it............that is how new styles are developed.


No disrespect to you or your teachers. I just think a good standup style, uechi is perefet IMO, and a good basis in a grappling style, Small circle for me, is all needed. Too many styles that are the same, for example karate style and kung fu style especially one that has too many kata, ip for confusion and what Blauer means with Hick's Law.

Better to train one style many years and add what the style lacks. If new info doesn't fit the basic style you're trying to get into your dna then thinking multiple shodans in many styles makes a difference is a mistake.

Rick's interpretations is great evidence of the utility of our style.

Ray, what's your uechi experience?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:19 pm 
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Quote
"Ray, what's your uechi experience?"
not very much I'm afraid, I was going to learn it properly this year under one of Harry Benfields old students, who is a good friend of mine ( and incidently holds black belts in kendo and Aikido, and taught me Escrima and Boxing, which he is qualified in as well)

My main interest in Uechi is Sanchin which I've known for 40 years..which is a bit of a conundrum to me, a puzzle ,an itch that you just can't scratch :) ...recently I have been looking at it as a method of sticking hands, and there is quite a lot that you can do with it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:39 pm 
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How to build your training is a great discussion point and one where I am sure there will be multiple approaches depending on each individual’s personality or learning style.

Like Josann for me I find having a base system as your platform and then building on that platform is the way to go.

I think you have to find a platform that “fits” you, and that may change as you learn and grow.

I dabbled in a number of things (no rank of any significance and certainly no shodans) before I found Uechi and Uechi fit for me.

I think if the goal is self-defence (See Ray’s description) then a solid CQC system is needed as a platform. Now, again, this is what worked best for me – I cannot say it fits everyone.

Uechi is a system that is built for close quarter encounters and can adapt to any range and any position.

I did a seminar out in Nova Scotia on adapting what we do when you have hit the ground and the bad guys haven’t.

From this platform, whatever that is for you, then explore and look around. Learn about what you see but then bring it all back to your base. If when looking around you found something that works for you then the test if you have the right base is if it easily adapts to bring that in – or rather a version of what you found because even that should be adapted to you and your platform.

As I said I find Uechi exceptionally adaptable and I can easily bring back to it anything that I find useful.

So I am a believer in Uechi. Now I have worked on my Uechi so that it fits me so that some might think I have gone off the rails but I don’t. I don’t claim this is the way it should be done just how I need to do it.

At the same time if you look at the Kanshiwa Takedown Bunkai there is nothing in there any interpretation of Uechi would find alien. They might not have seen those applications before but I think any interpretation of Uechi can see their Uechi in them.

Just as I don’t think you need to do Uechi to take something away from those clips and make it fit whatever platform you have.

The trick is finding, or creating, your platform.

Fun thread with great input.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:53 pm 
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Yeah Rick, Chinese styles you can talk them into the ground ,have different interpretations, explanations but if it works it works

like toe kicks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... omX4gESIlM

and couldn't this be part of Uechi?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRzioef1 ... 0E13DFB1FD

I don't disagree with what you say, because I have made my own template .it's just outside of anything other people do :lol: ......I think that you have to get into the mind of the founder of a system to fully understand it, but with Chinese styles they do change very rapidly, even in a couple of years.with something like Wing Chun, which I have been interested in, it has changed in next to no time, the standards vary tremendously , some think they are deadly when they are not and some really are tough


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:56 pm 
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Like Josann for me I find having a base system as your platform and then building on that platform is the way to go.

I think you have to find a platform that “fits” you, and that may change as you learn and grow.

I dabbled in a number of things (no rank of any significance and certainly no shodans) before I found Uechi and Uechi fit for me.

I think if the goal is self-defence (See Ray’s description) then a solid CQC system is needed as a platform. Now, again, this is what worked best for me – I cannot say it fits everyone.

Uechi is a system that is built for close quarter encounters and can adapt to any range and any position.


As I said I find Uechi exceptionally adaptable and I can easily bring back to it anything that I find useful.

Just as I don’t think you need to do Uechi to take something away from those clips and make it fit whatever platform you have.

The trick is finding, or creating, your platform.

Fun thread with great input.[/quote]


Yes. I did a few years of small circle jujitsu. My teacher was a 6th dan student of Dave Castoldi, one of the best in the U.S. He used wing chun as the standup style to supplement small circle. when he found out I did uechi, I was a sandan at the time, he told me to use uechi as my style rather than wing chun as he felt it was the perfect style to blend with small circle. He felt it was best to have a style of standup to build off of and utilize jujitsu techniques. He was impressed with the sanchin stance and the grabbing that should happen at the end of the blocks. Perfect spot to transition into some kind of lock or takedown. A little study like that really opened my eyes to what is possible with the uechi style.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:57 pm 
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Ray:

“I don't disagree with what you say, because I have made my own template .it's just outside of anything other people do ”

I don’t disagree with your approach either Ray, as I say find a platform that works for you or create one yourself. I just lucked out in finding Uechi and it fit for me. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:59 pm 
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Josann wrote:


Yes. I did a few years of small circle jujitsu. My teacher was a 6th dan student of Dave Castoldi, one of the best in the U.S. He used wing chun as the standup style to supplement small circle. when he found out I did uechi, I was a sandan at the time, he told me to use uechi as my style rather than wing chun as he felt it was the perfect style to blend with small circle. He felt it was best to have a style of standup to build off of and utilize jujitsu techniques. He was impressed with the sanchin stance and the grabbing that should happen at the end of the blocks. Perfect spot to transition into some kind of lock or takedown. A little study like that really opened my eyes to what is possible with the uechi style.


Great stuff.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:01 pm 
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Nice throws Rick,impressive


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:39 pm 
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Thanks, Ray.

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