Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:37 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 445 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 ... 30  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 6:01 am
Posts: 212
Quote:
You need to visualize all sorts of situations, including the awareness, decision-making, actions and aftermath. If you can't deal with all those ramifications in your imagination, you can't do it in real life. By the same token, if you do imagine these various situations enough, you train your mind to respond properly if you end up having to deal with them in real life. You are truly programming your heart and mind to handle the problem in the way you wish.
[/quote]

Isn't this what should be going on internally when we practice kata, i.e. "seeing' or visualizing the opponent? Lot's of research in brain science indicates that visualization is a powerful tool for success if used correctly as the brain and our physiology cannot tell the difference between that which is real and that which is imagined.

Many, myself included, struggle with the visualization in kata. I find that if I break kata down and practice chunks of it I can program some of the techniques that work for we. drilling them on BOB also helps.

Too many dis kata as irrelevent, but there is some solid brain science behind the theory if we look deep enough.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30372
Quote:
Many, myself included, struggle with the visualization in kata. I find that if I break kata down and practice chunks of it I can program some of the techniques that work for we.


I agree, and it is my understanding that this is the way Kanbun taught kata.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:18 pm
Posts: 1154
Location: Wells Beach , Me.
It took me along time to decode Kata for RMA.
Disseminating knowlege from a form requires an understanding and naturalizing of the language of movement that it was made from. I missed that part in my youth...I guess thats why they say youth is wasted on the young........haha !

_________________
FEARS Ltd
"Art meets Reality"
www.fearsltd.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:48 am
Posts: 416
To many see Kata as a sequence, and it leads to choreographed nonsense, when what was recorded most logically, would of been simple and brutal, attack and defense as one

Forms are dismissed for the fact they don't make sense of violence the way there often presented


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 6:01 am
Posts: 212
Stryke wrote:
To many see Kata as a sequence, and it leads to choreographed nonsense, when what was recorded most logically, would of been simple and brutal, attack and defense as one

Forms are dismissed for the fact they don't make sense of violence the way there often presented


This thread has been a great one. if you've followed it it seems that it has come full circle and has reached a conclusion that, at least for many of us, that intelligent use of kata can be a way to train for reality.

Too many disciplines tell their beginner students that "kata is useless" and the students takes that as gospel and never studies it. Uechi and many TMA say adages like "kata is karate, and karate is kata." This one had me scratching my head for almost 20 years until recently. As I've gotten older, 59 in 2 months, I appreciate kata for the health and physical benefits, but also for the utility of it as a training tool.In this thread we've talked about the mental and physical benefits of kata for reality.I do feel that it takes a long time, in my case almost 20 years, of study to appreciate kata for what it has to offer. In my case a turning point in my appreciation of uechi was when I did cross train and my small circle ju jitsu teacher, who had no karate background, told me that uechi was an ideal system for ju jitsu cross training and allowed me to explore the combination of the two.Small circle is entirely reality based, at least the way the students of Dave Castoldi in Massachusetts teach it.To get approval of uechi from those guys says a lot for the style.

And as to Van's point that this is how Kanbun taught, it is the best way to appreciate kata. My sensei, Joe Graziano, teaches kata this way. We do the kata, break down the moves of the kata, do the bunkai, and then work out our own bunkai. After classes like that you find yourself more confident in kata and more able to see it's utility. I find myself leaving classes enthusiastic and it makes the daily "study" of kata easier to get into. It makes me understand what Walter Mattson oftens says that you "study" kata. Walter often used a Okinawan word, I think it is keiko, which translates as "to think about" when studying kata. Don't know who has ever trained with either Walter or Joe, but these guys really get it when it comes to the expression that 'kata is karate, and karate is kata' and have a way of getting that across to their students.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 575
Kata is a whole can of worms :lol: .I can view it from a lot of different perspectives, and I really think that you need to do that to get some understanding.
firstly i don't think everybody views kata the same way. The Chinese,the Okinawans and the Japanese all have adifferent viewpoints and also within their communities there are also different viewpoints. Lets be honest a lot of people don't know what the hell they are doing, and that is most apparant in something like Tai Chi , and change occurs a lot quicker than most people realise, I have seen that in Wing chun.I know 4 variations of the first form , all originating from Ip Man.The understanding of my various teachers was very different as well, I know one teacher who has left out a whole section of the form, and I understand why he did it, some of my teachers would not understand why, but they also do it in a manner that indicates that they have no idea of why they are doing it. and one of them frequently visits China 8O
There are certain moves that lend themselves to many applications, and from them you can develop lots of ideas, and even go into directions that you had no idea about until you saw something explained in a certain way. sanchin and the Wa uke I think fall into this categorie. You can use it like a other Chinese forms such as the Iron Wire, for tension in the body, as a body building tool.or you can use it in a soft entirely diffent way
like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIuTUCoY ... r_embedded

also at certyain points within that move, there are possibilities of going to a much different move, based on the persons balance ,strength or energy :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30372
Best way to convince a student of the importance of kata is to get him to deal with scenarios of the most habitual acts of violence...not the usual straight karate punches back and forth.

Some students don't like to hear the word 'violence' ...but they need to wake up to the fact that studying a TMA in the dojo is indeed a form of violence...but will this 'sterile study' on the floor with choreographed moves_be all the need against street violence that bears no similarities with dojo attacks?

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:48 am
Posts: 416
I think Kata is an exceptional tool, and agree with Van, its about making it relatable and teaching from it

Reintroducing the acts of violence, studying the questions, not just the answers


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 575
I think that it is the way that you view TMA that is important. In the orient the hard men all do TMA, as we do here, but here it's boxing or wrestling or MMA and not oriental TMA.
In the west oriental TMA attracted a different bunch of very diverse interests.
I've been looking at Pak mei and was verty impressed with this clip, especially the use of the shoken.looks very similar to Uechi but it you can see the very obvious fighting attitude to the style.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e48uO6f1CoI


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30372
It is really a 'no-brainer' _ nowadays, physical violence can happen to anyone, anytime, anywhere and under any conditions. What does this mean?

Look at the news and newspapers…
Home invasions, hostage taking, store/bank robberies … multiple armed opponents; the very real potential situations today.

So it's paramount that modern self-defense must encompass the whole range of possible situational and environmental scenarios, at least in the mind _as we train, or you are not studying self defense or self protection.

Now, you will have people tell you they are not really interested in self protection _that self defense is not the primary motivator for their studies…and that,after all... self protection is built in …an inherent part of whatever style they might indulge in…and that includes boxing, wrestling etc./ so it will come automatically.

Then some will argue that their only interest is in 'spiritual martial endeavors'…a way of life…etc.

Maybe so, but this 'justification' for studying a martial art usually fails to impress most of the listeners, because they know that martial arts are 'battle arts' …if we could get inside the listener's head…what would we really hear of their internal dialogue? "Who's this guy trying to kid?"

So now we have the average practitioner…his life _ very finite in numbers of years…he is busy with full time careers, school, family life, and other interests that make life more complete and enjoyable for as long as it lasts…

As they study a martial art, and or even supplement those studies with a license to carry firearms [read the papers and see how people are flocking in droves to firearms training schools and how gun shelves in dealers' stores are being picked clean]…their mindset is looking for a combination of efficient techniques and tactics they can employ to escape violent attacks.

What attacks? Here's is one example
Quote:
Crime Statistics
• In 2004, there were a reported 148, 331 police calls across 514 Walmart stores analyzed.
That equates to an average of 269 calls per store. (4)
o In Texas, there were 21,741 police incidents reported at 69 stores studied. (4)
o The Houston store located at 2727 Dunvale reported 1,123 police incidents, placing it in the Top 10 stores nationwide.(4)
• Between 2003 – 2006, there were:
o 16 alleged murders committed at Walmart stores and parking lots, including 2 alleged
o murders in the Houston area (Katy and Spring).(4)
o 16 alleged rapes and sexual assaults at Walmart stores and parking lots, including 1 in the Houston area.(4)
o 11 alleged sex crimes against children at Walmart stores and parking lots, including 1 in the Houston area.(4)


You can be 'tough' and skilled in any martial art you care to name, but unless you are also schooled in the pre-conflict stage (threat assessment, conflict conditioning), the conflict stage, and the post conflict stage management_you need to be very careful of what your training consequences might be, and what you wish for.

Kata and the rest of what we usually do is fine…but we need to incorporate, or at least to consider, our kata moves as able to defend against the common types of modern attacks from conventional to unconventional weapons conducted in situational scenario form, or close to it. Not many dojos have the time and skills in that aspect, so then student must remain cognizant of those limitations.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:48 am
Posts: 416
great discussion

I dont think anyones wrong when they say the self defence moves are in there style, the attributes and timing and ability to deliver force are pretty much there in any are in spite of its focus.

I think a lot of people get confused when they try and put a kick punch sportive mentality into there kata.

that skillset is undeniably a skill, and a pre-requisite for fighting, but while the mechanics and movments were are in the kata I dont beleive that was the primary purpose for them.

clearly the need to defend oneself originated before the methods of defence.

Books like the Bubishi clearly show the HAPV and physical strategy was a part of the makeup of these arts and at the least of great interest to the masters who seemed to posess it in okinawa.

It was hard for the average martial artist to approach such material 10-15 years ago , now I think its proabably harder not too, the amount of likeminded researchers,artists,rbsd,self help gurus , everyone has an angle.

I think the two biggest obstacles in growing as a martial artist is knowledge and fear .

A lack of knowledge , and a fear of knowledge

every time you discover something new in your style your style grows, everytime you learn from without your style your style grows.

Lairds clips were mentioned in this thread, he had a great collection of cqb style Uechi , not many would recognise.

I recall a application clip he posted to the crys of that aint uechi...., I recall not becuase of my surprise or disdain... but because a few years later an okinawan senior showed a very similar interpetation and it was universally held up as great uechi ryu... the real mustard...

to me it wasnt a case of not the right uechi , it was a case of this can fit , this makes me better .... why would it not be good?

So many storys of this Uechi guy trains a little of this and has a whole new insight and respect for his Uechi.... it was there all along , but a lack of knowledge hid it .

I think before you do it its overwhelming, you spend so much time focusing on specialisation the general seems insurmountable.

but those specific skills give you such a broad base, what you need is specialist help, seek out the likeminded share and youll find it all comes together with no dilution of your core art.

Search out the specialist of application without fear, approach some like Rick Wilson or Van Canna , people who specialise in the practical application of your art and have done a lot of the leg work and heavy lifting already , cross reference everyone , beyond all take responsibility .

self responsibility is the cornerstone of self protection and of life.

it is all in the Kata , dont be afraid to look for it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:43 am
Posts: 166
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Nice clip Ray. It is an interesting style:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG60sngH ... 2A56116A5D

I am with Van, Josann, Robb and Marcus on kata.

It is what you make of it.

I see Kata as the library of Uechi Ryu.

It contains all the knowledge of the system.

How you perform Kata and how you interpret it will determine its usefulness to you.

To me it is a place first to experience the body mechanics of our system.

To listen to each movement to ensure we are meeting all the principles we believe it. (Whatever that is for you.)

Am I using the six harmonies?

Can I feel the expression of Yin and Yang everywhere?

Are the expansions and contractions happening?

Are my concentric expansions happening?

Gravitation alignment?

Am I maintaining my line constantly and consistently?

Are my moves genratiing the next?

ETC….

Then kata is taken into the visualization.

Can I dissect what I would be doing with Kata?

Can I imagine the uses in many situation of my kata?

Can I experience it as I do it?

Then Kata moves into interpretation and exploration with partners.

I see Uechi Kata (I’m sure other stylists may share this too but I don’t do other style Kata) as a linking of what someone somewhere determined were useful CQC applications.

What specifically those were may have been lost but it really doesn’t matter because the blue print remains and it only takes our work to determine how they can be applied.

The thing for me is to remember that these are principles with many applications and to explore any use of them I can throw at the Kata.

.

_________________
Rick Wilson - http://wpd-rc.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 6:01 am
Posts: 212
Curious as to what additional training guys do to"train for reality" outside the dojo. I lift weights 3 days per week, stretch twice each day ( and that's probably not enough in my case) walk or ride a bike daily. In addition I hit BOB in the basement when working out,work some joint locks with my son who trains mma every week, and do some aspect of Kata each day.

Nothing beats partner training in the dojo, but there's a lot we can do on our own. I've seen so many training partners dojo buddies disappear after shodan and never return.

This whole thing is a lot more fun than it was when I started.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30372
Tough question Josann. Answers will be highly subjective. First of all I think that what you are doing is most excellent overall, in fact better than most reading these pages.

The following link contains good general information patterned on the concepts of Rory Miller found in his books.
http://www.functionalselfdefense.org/violence

Why books…people ask_ it all starts with the mind...i.e., "Education" in violence we never address in any dojo for many reasons, one simple one > time> students are there to physically workout and not to listen to 'speeches' about something they have difficulty visualizing.

The first step is …you ingrain into the student the 'homework' concept that starts with 'education' about violence. Again this link is a good one …

http://www.functionalselfdefense.org/violence

Once that information gets 'bricked and mortared' in the subconscious_ a student needs to visualize himself in some of those situations_ then ask the self if he believes what he is learning will be physically and conceptually adapt at surviving an attack, or whether he needs more specialized corollary training, which includes 'amping up' his dojo workouts conceptually matching his visualized response actions in possible attacks.

Take a look at the brutal killing of the woman in the video clip in the link…then place yourself in the shoes of that hapless victim and ask yourself …what you would need to have done, how and why… and how would you modify your training_

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30372
As to training...yes work hard, stay hard, work 'concepts' more than techniques...but also stay armed in some fashion, know your weapons, and that includes your body.

And then come to grips that you soon get old and much of what you took for granted is gone, leaving the mental, which also has its day of reckoning.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 445 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 ... 30  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group