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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:21 pm 
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As an aside...and we need Jason's input here: if you're in fight with a bad guy, and you're both on the ground injured...is there any way to make a responding EMT treat you first, even if the punk has a worse injury?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:42 am 
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Te only way to look at all this..including classical karate...is that they are simply 'tools'...I keep lots of 'tools' around...classical karate[Uechi for me...the one and only] is but only one of the formidable tools you need to have to blend with the rest of the continuum...psychological/physical etc.


Amen Van , but just for discussion, Karate was historically considered an excercise in doing all the above , the real Bushi were of the pen and sword , the holisitic nature of mind body and spirit and continual study of all things martial, the consideration of there manners , attitude and mindset , there responsibilitys, and there abilitys.

it always comes down to the practitioner and individual and the methods as you say are tools, but nothing new and definately not missing from the classical tradition.

they all went looking for the best of the time , and so should we, it subtracts nothing from our chosen style.

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I'm guessing that none of us here have ever once "thought anything out" when we were surprised with a violent encounter. We just reacted. And the beauty of martial arts is - we all prepare in our daily training, in our style and in our attitude in different ways. And we are all still here.



This bears repeating, and I think this statemeny backs up my next one ,the most valuable bit of this thread is IMHO Ricks OH crap to OK drill , not dealing with anything but what happens when your caught out, this is infinately more usefull IMHO than any number of techniques of doom, and sadly lacking in most MA dojos.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:19 am 
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Amen.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:36 am 
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Stryke wrote:
Quote:
Te only way to look at all this..including classical karate...is that they are simply 'tools'...I keep lots of 'tools' around...classical karate[Uechi for me...the one and only] is but only one of the formidable tools you need to have to blend with the rest of the continuum...psychological/physical etc.


Amen Van , but just for discussion, Karate was historically considered an excercise in doing all the above , the real Bushi were of the pen and sword , the holisitic nature of mind body and spirit and continual study of all things martial, the consideration of there manners , attitude and mindset , there responsibilitys, and there abilitys.

it always comes down to the practitioner and individual and the methods as you say are tools, but nothing new and definately not missing from the classical tradition.

they all went looking for the best of the time , and so should we, it subtracts nothing from our chosen style.

Quote:
I'm guessing that none of us here have ever once "thought anything out" when we were surprised with a violent encounter. We just reacted. And the beauty of martial arts is - we all prepare in our daily training, in our style and in our attitude in different ways. And we are all still here.



This bears repeating, and I think this statemeny backs up my next one ,the most valuable bit of this thread is IMHO Ricks OH crap to OK drill , not dealing with anything but what happens when your caught out, this is infinately more usefull IMHO than any number of techniques of doom, and sadly lacking in most MA dojos.



Great post. I cringe when people say karate doesn't work, is not effective, is a joke etc. Most people who know me have no idea what a large part of my life karate is. My kids, now in their 20's to 36 were always told this was Dad's thing and I guess I had a "you don't talk about fight club" attitude about it.

In the 90's UFC came along and many began to think karate was a joke because it wasn't used or at least wasn't evident in MMA (apologies to St.Pierre, Lidell, Machita) so karate began to be marketed as some type of little league for kids, little tigers, little dragons or whatever.Over the past few years there has been a revival of "reality based" MA and this thread clearly shows that karate in general and uechi in particular had it right all along.

If karate doesn't work it's not karate but the karateka that don't work. We all need to have something in mind whenever we train whether in the dojo or in our basements at home. Principles over techniques, and a purpose to the kata, bunkai, and techniques that we practice daily.

Also got to love something that can be a lifetime study and part of a lifestyle.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:30 pm 
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I think karate encompasses a lot of ideas and cultures, they are all slightly different. Chinese is different from Okinawan, Okinawan different from Japanese, and you can see this in the approaches to the art. I really don't like MMa , but I do like the Brazillian approach to Jiu Jitsu, one on one it's great.
I think of it a bit like the stock market or wealth. you have cycles they build up like the Tech stock cycle, then you have a bubble, which bursts like tech stocks did and another bubble .say property then that builds up and bursts.......I think it's the same with martial arts, at one time it was the Chinese , then Okinawa now maybe it's the west. but we shouldn't forget what came before. Now BJJ isn't as highly thought of as it was.or Kata for that matter, but their time will come again I think :)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:25 am 
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Van Canna wrote:
As an aside...and we need Jason's input here: if you're in fight with a bad guy, and you're both on the ground injured...is there any way to make a responding EMT treat you first, even if the punk has a worse injury?


Sorry. Just caught this. No. Protocols and the law say we are required to triage and treat the most-injured person first. Secondly, just like the police, we don't know the whole story of what's going on. Most likely, by the time we get there, the cops will be there, and you'll both be in handcuffs. And you won't be talking to us unless we ask you questions, because the cops will shut you up. At least, that's been my experience responding to domestics, drunken brawls, fisticufs and the like.We're not there to judge innocence or guilt, but to help the injured. Really sticks in your craw, though, when you're treating a guy you found out just attempted to rape someone.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:05 am 
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One of the struggles I see in teaching self protection is the development of the attack mindset.

I think that the attack mindset often is misinterpreted but for me it is always being on the look out to take the offensive.

In self protection there cannot be a defensive mindset.

If you are defending then you are behind and if you are behind you are losing.

But how do you instil that thought process of constantly looking for that opening?

In self protection the moment you can take control (make it your turn) you can never let it go.

To take over you must take that moment of advantage.

If you focus is to simply fend off the aggressor’s attacks then eventually you will fail.

So as you avoid what the aggressor is trying to do to you or as you recover from what they have done to you your focus has to be what you are going to do to them and THAT has to stop them.

If this is not the student’s natural proclivity – how do we instil that in them?

I openly admit what I teach tries to do this but I see “slippage” in drills even when I think it has been accomplished.

Any ideas out there?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:00 am 
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Rick Wilson wrote:
One of the struggles I see in teaching self protection is the development of the attack mindset.

I think that the attack mindset often is misinterpreted but for me it is always being on the look out to take the offensive.

In self protection there cannot be a defensive mindset.

If you are defending then you are behind and if you are behind you are losing.

But how do you instil that thought process of constantly looking for that opening?

In self protection the moment you can take control (make it your turn) you can never let it go.

To take over you must take that moment of advantage.

If you focus is to simply fend off the aggressor’s attacks then eventually you will fail.

So as you avoid what the aggressor is trying to do to you or as you recover from what they have done to you your focus has to be what you are going to do to them and THAT has to stop them.

If this is not the student’s natural proclivity – how do we instil that in them?

I openly admit what I teach tries to do this but I see “slippage” in drills even when I think it has been accomplished.

Any ideas out there?


I coached football for a number of years and one of the ways I taught aggression was to get the player so tired and angry that he was short tempered and angry during drills so that he would learn that he could be aggressive and that he was a better player when a little angry, not so much that he was out of control.

In tests for jujitsu they often have multiple attackers that attack one after the other and then peal off when the defender counters and then another attacks and so on. the defender gets aggressive and a little primal and usually finds that aggression helps. makes me think of those rape defense coursrs that women take- you know the one's where the woman goes nuts, kicking and scratching and yelling " no,no." Maybe something to that.

I think it is hard for tma, especially karate to train like this because we don't pad up often enough and once glove are put on our use of our hands as weapons changes and in some respects ceases to be karate.

I'd love to practice against multiple attackers and work until fatigue and then anger sets in.This is the pint where true training is either there or not. arate do is all too often too polite and controlled. Ok for training but at times it's fun to go a little deeper and see if self protection is really there. Not necessarily suited for everybody.

Getting an injury is something everybody is not comfortable. I stick with techniques that I know would easily do-because i have done them in reality in the past- for example forearm to the throat and face, joint locks and shy away from those that i know I would not be comfortable with- thumbs gouging eyes. i try to ingrain a few moves that come from seisan and practice those daily.

Good food for thought Rick.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:24 pm 
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I think generally TMA attracts nice people, who are either looking for a hobby to keep them fit or are looking to learn self defence. In my experince the people who do it as a fitness goal tend to be better at self defence.
I think practising a loud kiai is essentila ,because it shows that you are confident enough to stand out. Notice how difficult it is for a beginner to shout loudly, they can do it when you punch in a group, when asked to do it on their own many shy away,especially women.
The other thing is people are schooled in not throwing the first punch, they tend naturally to think that if they throw the first punch that it is not self defence anymore, it goes against their perception of what it right. To overcome this you must have none contact drills or very light contact drills were one person stands with his hands down and the other throws combinations at him, but never making contact. If you have a "BOB" then this is easier to do.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:40 pm 
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I tend to think the biggest difference between uechi and "reality based" arts is not technique but the way it is trained and the intensity of the training. We have the correct tools we dont always sharpen them in the best way to deal with reality.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:52 pm 
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I tend to see "styles" as a way of addressing skills that I lack, or of evaluating new skills. I studied Tai Chi and Wing chun, to learn pushing hands and sticking hands. Uechi can be approached in many different ways

look at this at 25.34

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLibKL7O ... F2F3700A48

This is Uechi turned into sport karate, now that sort of thing doesn't interest me at all, it's just not where I'm at martially. If I did an Okinawan styles, and I did used to do Goju then it wouldn't look very different from CQB, I think as you get older you tend to get closer in when you fight. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:16 pm 
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You can develop spirit and attack mindset, but you can't teach it

That is to say the student must have the will and expectation of therself to develop it

This means a willingness to change there thinking and attitude in regards to violence

Right thinking and personal introspection is the only way .

Admitting this is to hard for many

But I believe its possible for anyone, the difficult part real willingness.


Our duty as teachers of self protection is to not led the student hide from there delusions,but to do it with.kindness

And resist the urge to get frustrated, the biggest battle is always within

You can exercise your courage muscles, but you must accept the realitys of influencing others


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:43 pm 
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I think if you have good teachers that it helps. My first teacher moved really quick, that was the first thing that I picked up on, after him if people didn't move like that ( Irespective of style) I gave up on them.and it's still the same. My Dad was a champion Snooker player and played some of the best.could have turned Pro....he said that you have to really want to hit the ball, it's the same with MA................if you don't want to do the business.then it's not your business :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:53 pm 
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From a technical perspective of teaching an attack mindset , I always reference the relationship

instead of watching yourself or your opponent , I Advocate watching the interaction(gap,relationship) between you .

you are either meeting, or yeliding, joining or leading you are never blocking

by establishing this relationship you can find the joint mass centre , the cumulitive centre of the confrontation.

whoever has the momentum across the JMC has the upper hand and the power momentum and positonal advantage.

by understanding and seeing this relationship you find that defence comes from being first to this point , this can be done moving in any direction even backwards as its arriving at the point between you first , it is in essence a closing of the relationship. if you are both moving the same then the relationship does not alter , by watching the relationship you are simplifying the dynamic.

hopefully we instill a desperation to be the one to arrive and control this point.

also earlier I mentioned neutral stances, while I do this for the more advanced there is another reason above being the most likely stance you are to be suprise attacked from .

It necessitates moving into a stance attack , this accomplishes two crucial things.

1) it makes you move in the direction your going attacking( :lol: I know sounds obvious but so many get this wrong)
2) it makes you leave the position being attacked .

the very opening of kata shows this IMHO , Max Ainley was the one to really emphasise the start of kata to me , and I beleive this is one of the reasons , to explode out of neutral and find your power into your techniques . stance and technique being were you end up , with momentum and with aggression.

while the intent must lead the technique , by making the logic of the technique require the mindset, we point the mind in the right direction and lead hopefully towards right combative thinking.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:12 am 
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Good posts.

I like to kick in an emotional reaction and have them respond.

One of Rory Miller’s books inspired the following drill called Blast.

In his book Rory talked about how some criminals perfected the slap not only because it protected the hand but because it caused an emotional reaction that often froze the person being attacked.

I used this as part of the 2011 IUPA black belt testing. I should note here that it comes about an hour into the test which started with an alternating Kata and TACFIT exercises for about half an hour to exhaust the candidates (ala Josann’s ideas.)

One candidate stands with eyes closed as the other slaps and attacks.

The person slapping does not attack “as themselves” in other words they do not attack as themselves but play a part. This is not a contest it is a test of certain responses.

The hardest part is that their response STILL MUST be controlled and not full contact. The test alternated high adrenaline and controlled adrenaline drills.

The two guys were too nice at the start so I did step in and help them UP the intensity level.

http://wpd-rc.com/blog/blast-drill/

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