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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:42 am 
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jorvik wrote:
I think if you have good teachers that it helps. My first teacher moved really quick, that was the first thing that I picked up on, after him if people didn't move like that ( Irespective of style) I gave up on them.and it's still the same. My Dad was a champion Snooker player and played some of the best.could have turned Pro....he said that you have to really want to hit the ball, it's the same with MA................if you don't want to do the business.then it's not your business :lol:


Disagree with this one. All of us have a survival instinct and,I think, are capable of violence in the right circumstances. Mother's defending their young, men defending family, soldier's defending buddies and so on. Well thought out training can bring this out if the teacher is teaching the mindset as well as techniques. I know Ray's view that you can train and get a lot from solo workouts but a partner, especially one who could hurt you is a great tool for developing this.Learning to harness fear and use it as a force in your favor is a part of any sport where aggressive contact and the risk of injury are possible.

One of the reasons I think boxers have such an advantage in "real fights" is that most of their training and sparring are close to the edge and very realistic so when it is real they've been there before and are comfortable. As noted before, hard to duplicate this with karate as once gloves are put on the "empty hand" concept ceases to exist.

Fully agree with Rick on this, that proper drilling can instill this. I used to train one of my son's with light sparring and some defense techniques. We worked out with 16 oz. gloves, headgear and mouthpieces with me pulling everything while making the big theatric moves so that he'd learn to be calm in the face of a big threat. He had to learn that once he hit me hard that it was not ok to stop and apologize- which was his natural instinct- but to finish me off asap. He picked this up pretty quickly, learned to be comfortable punching to the head and face. Most systems which emphasize defense over karate do have some variation of partner training where the intensity is rampted up but just controlled enough to avoid real danger.

In my dojo my sensei, Joe Graziano, tests students in sanchin with big moves and very controlled contact. To the uninitiated it looks extremely dangerous. To the new student it instills a confidence that can take a shot and it's not the end of the world. As the student develops so does the contact. I know many are critical of sanchin shime, but there is place for it if intelligently applied.

Again, this training is not for everyone, I agree with Ray on that. However if one wants to learn to be aggressive it can be taught.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:59 pm 
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Quote
Disagree with this one. All of us have a survival instinct and,I think, are capable of violence in the right circumstances. Mother's defending their young, men defending family, soldier's defending buddies and so on. Well thought out training can bring this out if the teacher is teaching the mindset as well as techniques. I know Ray's view that you can train and get a lot from solo workouts but a partner, especially one who could hurt you is a great tool for developing this.Learning to harness fear and use it as a force in your favor is a part of any sport where aggressive contact and the risk of injury are possible.


Jo
I think you misunderstand what I said. I have crossed trained in many arts, and in some of them you absolutely need a partner, my last MA was wing Chun and I would say 90% of it is partner work. My backgrond in throwing arts also needs partner work, in fact you can't learn it without a partner.
My comments about being Quick where not directed at anybody on this forum. I was remembering back to my Jiu jitsu days, and reflecting on some of the people that I have known. Back then people seemed to think that somehow after years of training if they got in a fight they would throw somebody with a lightning fast throw :lol: .now the reason that that is funny is because I never saw any of them do a lightning fast throw. They practised slow throws :roll:
.and as they say in computer speak GIGO.Garbage in, Garbage out. What you train is what will come out....................I think Van told a story about officer Firearms training ,were they were told when practising disarms to never give the gun back to your partner, because that is what you will do in a real street confrontation. simply because you have trained to do just that
One of my teachers didn't like bowing, because you get so used to doing it that when you go into a Cimema etc there is that temptation to bow, I kid you not :lol: ..........I've also known people, back in the day who I trained with when I was in my 20's and they would be my age back then, and they were all stories about how tough they were. I had a friend whose Dad was in construction, he was a big man and in his youth and younger years could do all sorts of strong man feats, after 20 years of heavy drinking,smoking and overeating he would still look at people in a menacing way as though he was the tough guy that he once was......Now they are things to be very aware of. I know other people who are not like that at all, they are old ,some in poor health, but they are quiet respectfull men, who could walk their talk and still can.my good friend Bob ( A uechi man) had a triple bypass and he is still someone not to pick a fight with, or anothetr guy I know Keith who used to be a body builder and at 67 still rides powerfull motorcycles.

But you need to train what you want to bring out, remember you are training for a confrontation that may last two minutes.now think of that..you see people in karate clubs standing in lines punching the air...for what? better to hit something hard, as fast as you can for 2 minutes.that in itself is not an easy feat..................Boxings good, I love it but it's not fighting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGM68gaVylo


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:13 pm 
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Good question by Rick and many good answers already given here.

As to training, well…the proverbial can of worms…there are millions of opinions out there, and that's only the start.

As to the question on the 'air moves' we see in TMA's kata and other drills…OK … my argument here continues to be that all kinds of sports, and in particular, combat sports… require mastery of particular physical movements from the mother discipline under study.

What is crucial to understand is that incorporating the whole body to perform even just a simple punch or kick is a critical skill to develop.

So 'air punches or air moves' we see in TMA are components of more diversified training associated to them, because that practice helps develop neuromuscular familiarity in executing these actions.
If you want to be successful at self defense or free sparring, you also need to visualize techniques/principles as you practice kata so that you will condition the body and the mind to react effectively to the visualized stimulus.

Improving footwork is another benefit of 'air moves' in kata due to lateral movements, moving in and out, sidestepping, and positional rotations, something we also see in shadow boxing.

This will make the practitioner comfortable on his feet until it becomes second nature.

I came to karate with a competitive athletic background in track and field, rowing, soccer and two years of ju-jitsu…then I fought in some tournaments of the sixties and seventies…these could be brutal at times.

I become aware that in many tournaments the kata champions also seemed to win the free fighting competition on consistent basis. Why?

With the coaching and performance of other sports in the background…I realized that 'air moves' in karate kata…if studied intelligently _helped with the reflexive analysis of taking advantage of the openings the opponent gave me_ and the 'motion quality' of my kicks _ punches, and take downs.

More important, I found that the kata [air moves/strikes] helped to analyze the openings 'I would present' to the opponent in my attacks that had left me vulnerable to a counter.

Something else that is usually drilled into the competitive athlete: you need to develop coordination and improve the stabilizing muscles.

Take any fight…real or sporting: you cannot hit the target all the time, you will miss of your own or your opponent will make you miss. And in every miss --- depending on the commitment to the attack --- you will get off-balanced. That brief moment of trying to regain balance and posture is more than enough time for the opponent to hit you with a KO shot.

Now why is it that in Uechi, for example, a teacher wants you, while performing a strong form, go back into a 'proper stance' after attacking moves? That's because he knows that the more you try to hit harder, the more momentum you generate, and the more difficult it is to go back to a neutral position from which to be able to evade a counter or reload your attack.

The 'shadows' you are engaging in the kata give you the perfect way to train the muscles to counteract the momentum you generated in your every attack… developing the supporting muscles involved in the 'retraction'… so you will not severely get off-balanced even when you throw your power shots and miss.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:29 pm 
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'Sport Karate'

Another pet-peeve of mine:

First of all the so called 'sport karate' is more precisely defined as a 'combat sport'...because of the cardio demands, the body bruising and the mental aspect of 'ring entry' _as an example...it took courage to sign up in a heavyweight division, knowing you might end up drawing the likes of Joe Lewis or Chuck Norris, or even Ed Daniels, the king Kong of karate at 6'8" and 280 lbs.

Traditional training and 'sport' karate training both compliment each other, and each should be respected for what it brings to the table in terms of improving a Martial Artist's abilities and performance. One aspect of it being that an equal aspect of the 'game's goal is the avoidance of being hit or taken down.

Most good 'sport fighters' do a lot of ancillary athletic training to increase speed, strength, explosive power, focus, coordination, timing and endurance...and,again, let us not forget the cultivation of courage to enter the ring against some real bruisers.

Now which of those are not useful in a street fight?

Consider the background and awesome abilities of Shinjo sensei _Okinawa free fighting champion for ten years straight. Sport karate athletes also train using traditional methods. Who, here on this forum, would like to criticize the abilities of Master Shinjio in a real fight?

At the old Mattson Academy in Boston we did lots of "freestyle" non-stop kumite (fighting) which included grappling, knees, elbows, head butts etc. (All controlled of course.) And much of that was against other styles fighters coming up to take us on.

This kind of 'sparring' is important not only from a physical and stamina perspective but to increase the brain's "library" of actions and reactions so that the next time you will react to similar stimuli even quicker.

Also to keep in Keep in mind is that traditional training was conceived without the benefit of modern sports science and medicine. The pioneers were basically using their common sense to derive the best training conceivable. On the whole they did a terrific job.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:26 pm 
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One of the mental techniques taught by deadly force trainers, simply because they are teaching you the concept of 'terminal force' by the very instrument you choose to carry on your person, or by the recognition of improvised weapons…is that first we need to detach ourselves from the hard wired natural fear that rears its ugly head in any confrontation with the potential of dire consequences.

To further enhance this notion of detachment from fear, many trainers, suggest forcing yourself to perceiving the aggressor as, “…a corpse which just happens to still be erect.”

You tell yourself that because the very nature of an assailant's action is subhuman and predatory then:
This creature's actions—not yours—determine its fate.

Think of this not as a realization of your actions, but rather a transference of responsibility to the aggressor.

The deadly force trainers make you understand that they have removed the most nagging doubt we will all have, no matter how well trained and practiced we fancy ourselves to be, when going empty handed against superior force and numbers…by the fact you will have deadly force in your pockets ready to inflict terminal solutions.

"This is how you fight when `fight’ is the only option. This is how your weapons must be used, whatever those weapons may be.”

Now_ how to teach this mindset to take controlling action, as per Rick's question?

Well…the deadly force trainers teach that if there’s a single emotion benefiting you when fighting is the only option, it is anger. You have drawn your line in the sand, and you trigger a cold bitter-strong anger for the 'zombie-like' [in your mind] aggressor. He has chosen his fate by his actions.

And you condition your mind to trigger this controlled anger by the very fact you were selected as a potential victim over the rest of the world and forced into this situation.

You can tell your students to visualize this concept as they train in the dojo…this provides certain intensity to your workout in a safe manner and it pre-programs the mind and the physical reactions.

One prime example of this is the famous "Uechi Stare" of Shinjo sensei.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:06 am 
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Here is another drill we use to kick in that attack mindset. You cannot defend here it is TOO LATE you must attack back to survive.

The Slam Elevator Assault Drill:

Again this is from the 2011 IUPA Black Belt test and takes place about 70 minutes in. (After this there is still another self defence testing and then they have to do presentations.)

The Slam Elevator Assault Drill has two levels: Softwork and Hardwork.

The candidate starts with their eyes closed and is then is SLAMMED to the back of the elevator and has to defend themselves.

The Softwork section has to be responded to with control.

The Hardwork section is done in Tony Blauer’s HIGHGEAR (except for the helmets) and the contact and resistance is increased.

For the Hardwork you will notice I change to using a whistle to indicate when to stop. When in adrenaline mode one more voice shouting doesn’t often “get through” where a whistle can.

Again the drills I present can be added to any Uechi or any MA class if people find them useful.

Here’s the video clip of the drill:

http://wpd-rc.com/blog/slam-elevator-assault-drill/

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:42 pm 
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I wonder just how nasty we can become? I was watching this guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N058HolK6Kg

here is his knife

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzLVi1kLto

I was just thinking if I would be able to defend myself with one of those, I mean whether I would be capable of doing so. :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:07 pm 
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I have that knife for my collection, awesome, and I like the fact you can break glass with it for survival/rescue.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:12 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyXSocQyLwE

Reason why we should never really teach students to 'box' in the street.
Once your hand 'structure' goes, you are finished.

And reason why Uechi is such a superior style, so well 'thought out' with no punches, other than the back fist which does not present the same dangers as the usual punch.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:34 am 
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As an aside to Rays knife clip and grips , I have to Disagree you cant get a good grip with the thumb on top , the shoken shows us Uechi folks how to hold that grip with compression, but it is a specialist move.

Michael Janich has some interesting stuff IMHO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS5iJv_9WnY


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:13 pm 
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I often wonder about knives, I love them and collect them, but for fighting? I don't know.When I've been training full contact you get the thing that we call the "red Mist", once you get hit all sense goes out the window and you just want to hit back, been there done that :oops: .but a skilled fighter who is used to contact will take advantage of that and really hurt you......now with a knife, how will you know when you have been really hurt or cut? .I've spoken to a few guys who got stabbed in fights and they didn't know it until the other guy had run away.and of course you may set yourself up for much worse if you retaliate too quickly without knowing the situation.....I like Janisch's knife designs the yojimbo for example .one thing to think is when you deploy a knife, if you are face on , there is a time when you open the knife when you do not have complete control and a quick slap will knock it out your hands, much better to offer your left side forward then deploy from your right pocket and out of sight of your adversary asnd also safwe from getting it knocked out your hand


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:02 am 
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You've got to assume they've got a blade , chances are you wont see it , so basically all your empty hands work should work for knife ... congruency ....


mutual confrontation has no place in self protection , you only fight if you have too ,so hidden weapon or not makes no difference. You should be looking for the ques, if there interviewing and blading or going for pockets etc.

getting off/redirecting the line of force taking the blindspot and overwhelming force.

I like knife training for this very reason, not becuase I beleive empty hand on knife or knife on knife fighting scenarios are realistic , but just because it ups the intensity and makes folks get desperate, forces them to move offline and makes them appreciate the amount of force they need to be able to unleash and counterambush.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:37 pm 
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I like knife training for this very reason, not becuase I beleive empty hand on knife or knife on knife fighting scenarios are realistic , but just because it ups the intensity and makes folks get desperate, forces them to move offline and makes them appreciate the amount of force they need to be able to unleash and counterambush.


Well said Marcus_ this is the very likely possibility in all confrontations and as you point out, you won't see the knife, and Ray's you won't know you have been stabbed.

Again the deadly Force instructors teach getting offline...i.e., getting off the X in all types of engagements, going to the flank or behind the opponent....and the 'defender' then better have some means of delivering some sort of great stopping force or it will be a date with death.

Now think of how many of us here assume they have this stopping power.

Surely some do. But now you are staring into the crazy eyes of a 300 lbs felon hell bent in vaporizing you...question: how much impact training have you really done over the years while punching air?

And will those limbs fracture upon impact or will they stand the impact test?

Are you in shape or will you tire in a few frantic seconds?

Are you trained to go from empty hands to a weapon continuum?
Just some basics.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:49 pm 
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A real knife attack is likely to look like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ah_0gia4A0

Now how are we going to handle it?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:56 pm 
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Folsom prison knife attacks...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gwoxPbtUl4

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