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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:17 am 
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It is easy to pigeon-hole all the threats and cast broad stereotypes about which we can comfortably assert absolute conviction (knowing that there is no empirical evidence which can contradict us). Reality is that the BGs are as varied as we ourselves are.

Some BGs are stupid. But that doesn't render them safe. Their ability to calculate risk/reward is diminished and so they do retarded things--often in an attempt to feed a drug habit. They could elect to commit crimes that are both more profitable and less likely to result in their own deaths. But they continue to stick guns in the faces of late-night convenience store clerks because they can't think of anything better to do.

Some BGs are of average intelligence. They were born into a culture of sloth and violence, and they have been taught that the path to "respect" is in subjugating others. They may percieve danger in attacking you but still accept this danger because they believe that you would make a good trophy to prove their manliness.

Some BGs are brilliant. For most of us, our combination of a lack of assets and a thickened hide will lead these BGs to skip us and look for fatter, slower sheep. But perhaps you have something special that they want--and that may tilt the risk/reward scale against you. The worst kind of BGs fall into this category. I have much less concern for the BG who is interested in my truck than I do for the BG who is interested in my wife.

Ultimately, you have to develop a strategy that will effectively deal with every possible threat. The stupid BGs are the most common. But you shouldn't structure your entire defense around the lowest common denominator. Focusing entirely on the upper-level BG, however, will result in overlooking those violent actions that are economically illogical and yet very commonplace.

Defense is a multi-layered approach. If you add into the mix the BGs of the government variety, then the plan becomes exponentially more difficult. Crackheads, gangbangers, psychopaths and JBTs all present a threat. None of the threats can be dealt with in exactly the same manner.
Suarez Intnl

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:21 am 
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The BG's usually travel in packs, so assume there will be more than one. Also, I don't think they're stupid at all. In most cases, the attacker will be a repeat offender, with a tremendous sense of self worth and the confidence that they've mugged/attacked someone else already, and gotten away with it.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:39 am 
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Take this test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:47 pm 
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I guess over time I have been unkind to "experts", but there is a reason for this, my kindness is more concentrated on ordinary folk and relating what I have seen. The main thing that I see is the total confusion and madness that occurs with violence..and one thing is the "partial picture".we really only get a partial picture because we are involved, it is never objective it is always subjective.the things that we bring to the table are our experiences..........and we can sometimes be unkind in our assesment of others based on this.very often, I notice :oops: that others are much kinder and gentler in their assesment than I am
an example ,
My son went to a party...........he went into a room and saw a childhood friend getting beaten by another guy, who had him in a headlock.......my son stepped in and defended his friend.and beat up the other guy.....it later turns out that his friend was partly responsible for causing the ruckass...but all turned out well in the end.but what was he to do? do you defend your friends or not, even when they are in the wrong, although you only gain this knowledge with hindsight....these are the difficulties we face.....I suppose it must really be the assesment of the situation.....which we can only do when the situation has passed :?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:26 pm 
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This is interesting:

Quote:
One of our readers made an important comment on our home invasion
blog post yesterday.

It's important that you pay attention to this! John writes...


"Do not fire warning shots! Firing warning shots is a
criminal offense in most if not all states, and it might get
you jail time under mandatory sentencing laws.


Additionally, that shot just might cause collateral damage
you will eternally regret. For example in Florida, a
warning shot is the use of "deadly force" in Florida, and
"deadly force" can only be legally used to stop or prevent
the imminent commission of a "forcible felony" (ie: only the
most serious felonies), or to prevent imminent death or
great bodily harm to yourself or another person.


If you decide to fire a warning shot to try to stop an
attack -- your legal position is the same as if you actually
shot the intruder.


Bottom line- Be aware laws in your AO applicable to
self-defence."

John is spot-on with his remarks.

The only time you should ever pull that trigger is if your life
is in danger and the barrel is pointed AT your threat.


When you shoot... shoot to stop the threat - period!

No "warning shots"... no "shoot to injure"... if your life is in
danger, HE made it a "kill or be killed" scenario, not you.

(Thanks for your comment, John!)

Yours in survival,


Jeff Anderson
President, ISCQC

P.S. - "Survival" isn't just about the attack... you also need to
survive the courtroom battlefield AFTER the incident.

Most people don't even think about this and those that do are 95%
dead wrong in what they "think" they know about legally
protecting yourself.

Every armed citizen needs to watch this DVD.http://bulletproofdefensedvd.com/

It can keep you out of prison if you ever have to use your gun in
self defense!

Yes, it's that critical!

~ JA


I do have the DVD...well worth the seven bucks. It was written by Peyton Quinn, the specialist of Bulletmen training involving adrenal response.

Some might recall my extensive coverage of his concepts on this forum years back.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:06 am 
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A real 'pisser'

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Years ago whilst working in the subway we had 2 robberies where the guys ( 2 man team ) just rushed the guy at the urinal and smashed him against the urinal and wall, both had extensive injuries, broken facial bones and cracked sturnum on one the other had a fractured forearm and teeth. No chance to react, never saw anything.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:59 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyXSocQyLwE

Reason why we should never really teach students to 'box' in the street.
Once your hand 'structure' goes, you are finished.

And reason why Uechi is such a superior style, so well 'thought out' with no punches, other than the back fist which does not present the same dangers as the usual punch.


But what if you're "boxing" using a bareknuckle system of karate that involves conditioning the knuckles and wrists to toughen them up for that sort of attack?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:16 pm 
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MarkNoble wrote:
Van Canna wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyXSocQyLwE

Reason why we should never really teach students to 'box' in the street.
Once your hand 'structure' goes, you are finished.

And reason why Uechi is such a superior style, so well 'thought out' with no punches, other than the back fist which does not present the same dangers as the usual punch.


But what if you're "boxing" using a bareknuckle system of karate that involves conditioning the knuckles and wrists to toughen them up for that sort of attack?


That certainly helps, Mark. But you never know. Look at what happened to Mike Tyson, and he surely was naturally strong and well conditioned.
Quote:
Heavyweight champion Mike Tyson broke a bone in his right hand during a street fight with former opponent Mitch Green early Tuesday in New York. At a news conference Tuesday night, Tyson appeared wearing a cast on his right hand, saying the injury was a hairline fracture of the third metacarpal of the right hand.


There is something else I am sure you are aware of...the possibility of a nasty infection/kuckle sepsis...

http://www.global-training-report.com/punch.htm

Quote:
....one is going to land on your opponent's teeth. That isn't going to be fun for him. But it could be fatal for you.

The bacterial population of the average human mouth is roughly 1-10 million organisms per milliliter of fluid or gram of scrapings. It is among the "buggiest" parts of the body (More precisely, the mouth is composed of various micro-environments, each supporting a different mix of microorganisms.) Most are strict anaerobes, meaning they flourish inside tissue (rather than on the surface).

Broken teeth are sharp. The skin over the metacarpophalangeal joints (the knuckles) is thin. All the liquids of the body contain anti-microbial defense factors, especially blood, but the blood supply to the hand is poor, because the fingers are operated by a system of cords (tendons and ligaments) attached to muscles in the forearm, that move them by contracting. (Unlike muscles, tendons and ligaments are cartilage and do not require much oxygen, which is also why they heal slowly).


Most common pathogens found in clenched fist injuries are exactly the same ones that are found in the human mouth: Viridians streptococci, S. aureus, Bacteroides sp. Fusobacterium sp., peptostreptoccoci. Eikenella corrodens. Teeth tend to inject the organisms into joint capsules and bone. Once they are in, they are very hard to get at to kill or contain with antibiotics.

If the entire bone becomes infected, the treatment can be unpleasant indeed, including removal of part or all of the appendage. The good news is you aren't going to die. The bad news is you might not have two hands anymore.

And unfortunately, wounds of the hand and foot are more likely to become infected due to many tendon sheaths, fascial planes and compartments that promote persistence and spread of the microorganisms which can come not only from your victim's mouth, but from the surface of your own skin as well.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:31 pm 
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There are several other outstanding reasons for not punching someone with your closed fist. One is the high probability of breaking one or more of the 27 bones (all small) in each hand. For the same reason bacteria are hard for your immune system to get to, the bones heal slowly--poor blood supply.

The human hand is a marvel of natural design and served its evolutionary purpose by way of the survival possibilities opened up by precise manipulation of objects rather than as a substitute for a blunt force weapon. Here is an outline of the anatomy of the human hand. (3)

Another reason that will be obvious to any grappler is that with an open hand you can do much more to control your opponent.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:34 pm 
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And this very important reason to be considered
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A final reason, but no less important than the others, is that in western cultures that are under the sway of linear logic, a closed fist is perceived as threatening, as a prelude to aggression (whereas in some other cultures, it is used to signal emotional involvement and commitment.)

Try this experiment for yourself. Simply walk around and do what you normally do, but do it with your fist closed. Notice the reactions you get. People will give you a bit more space, and your girlfriend and mom will look at you funny and ask you what you are angry about.

Why does this matter? (4). If for some reason you get involved in the American criminal justice system you will find out fast.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:40 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:

That certainly helps, Mark. But you never know. Look at what happened to Mike Tyson, and he surely was naturally strong and well conditioned.
Quote:
Heavyweight champion Mike Tyson broke a bone in his right hand during a street fight with former opponent Mitch Green early Tuesday in New York. At a news conference Tuesday night, Tyson appeared wearing a cast on his right hand, saying the injury was a hairline fracture of the third metacarpal of the right hand.



Yes Sensei, I did read about what happened with Mike Tyson a while ago. More recently, former K-1 and Strikeforce heavyweight champ Alistair Overeem had a bareknuckle altercation in a nightclub and almost lost his hand due to infection.

http://www.cagepotato.com/alistair-over ... oses-hand/

Going back to the issue of "boxer's fractures" as they are referred to in the medical literature - I have done some Western Boxing and the use of heavily padded gloves and hand wraps negates the need for proper punching mechanics. In karate however, we are taught to really distribute the impact on the knuckles of the index finger and middle finger for good structural support. This is further reinforced with regular knuckle pushups (on those same 2 knuckles) and some wrist strengthening exercises.

Of course, as you have said, all of the above help to reduce the risk of a fracture from striking the head but do not eliminate that risk. They also do nothing to protect against infections from cuts when striking the mouth of an opponent.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:35 pm 
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I think that you have to ask why the use of the fist as a striking weapon is so widespread and common in so many cultures, and the answer must surely be that it is the most effective. If you can break your hand when punching someone, then you can break your hand when slapping someone...and you only have to look at some of the disfigured hands on some well known Karate people to see that they have broken their fingers many times.
There are some advantages to using the open hand which I have been shown. against a lot of opponents when you move from one to the other it seems most effective, and also if you are striking someone with your hands when they are on the floor. If you want to throw a none telegraphic blow a bitch slap is fantastic, however as soon as a fight occurs you need to be in some kind of guard stance, and the boxers stance is one of the most, if not the most effective stances.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:29 am 
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Yes Sensei, I did read about what happened with Mike Tyson a while ago. More recently, former K-1 and Strikeforce heavyweight champ Alistair Overeem had a bareknuckle altercation in a nightclub and almost lost his hand due to infection.

Sort of frightening Mark, don't you think? We had a case in Uechi; in fact it was to one of my former students, the late Allen Moulton.

He cut his knuckles in an altercation over the assailant's teeth, sepsis set in…his arm swelled up like a balloon…he made to the hospital just in time…where he was told…a few hours more and he would have been dead.
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In karate however, we are taught to really distribute the impact on the knuckles of the index finger and middle finger for good structural support. This is further reinforced with regular knuckle pushups (on those same 2 knuckles) and some wrist strengthening exercises.


Very true, Mark. However the human brain was designed by nature to be enclosed/protected by the cranium which is as strong as a brick wall.

Once in Florida, where I had been invited by the visiting Okinawan masters[about 1974] to join them in a demo during a tournament, I broke four one inch boards with a head butt. Something I never did again and do not recommend because of the obvious dangers from the brain splash. But it demonstrates how 'wall like' the cranium is.

Furthermore it can be argued that only very few practitioners will take the time to condition their hands to an extreme extent. The average student will not, and so we must play the percentages.

Additionally, in the chaos of combat punches usually aimed at the softer spots on the face have a pretty good chance to end up striking the forehead as the opponent shifts and ducks, so chances of actually hitting that precise target and at just the right angle, are not high. Look at a boxing match and we see most punches to the head miss the intended target more often than not.

I found this to be true when fighting tournaments and trying to score hits to the face.

But the most frightening aspect of this is
Quote:
unfortunately, wounds of the hand and foot are more likely to become infected due to many tendon sheaths, fascial planes and compartments that promote persistence and spread of the microorganisms which can come not only from your victim's mouth, but from the surface of your own skin as well.

A wound left untreated for three hours has a potential bacterial proliferation of more than 1,000,000 organisms/gram of tissue. Presence of even large numbers of organisms (up to 100,000 per gram of tissue) doesn't necessarily mean there is an infection, but in the case of high risk sites like the hand, joints, and bones, the potential complications are so serious (extensive tissue destruction and gangrene) that if bites and contamination with saliva are involved, most doctors will advise a 3-7 day prophylactic course of antibiotics whether there is clinical evidence of infection or not.

If you have erythema (redness), pain or tenderness, swelling, heat, and pus, then you have an infection.

That means there are a lot of microorganisms where they normally wouldn't be and shouldn't be. They will continue to double approximately once every 20-120 minutes, limited only by physical space and nutrient supply. You are eventually going to wish you hadn't punched that guy after all.

Your body will fight back. Fever is an attempt to create a temperature that inhibits the growth of the bugs. But it also causes tissue and organ damage and if high enough long enough can scramble your brain cells. You will also feel "unwell" and won't want to eat.

That isn't good because you'll be consuming 13 % more energy for every 1 % increase in body temperature. When you are malnourished, your immune system can't produce adequate numbers of T Lymphocytes, which increases your risk of infection and the severity of the infection when it happens.


Now, as to the effectiveness of the punch v. the open hand…well the open hand can be conditioned to be a lethal weapon. I saw a demo of Mas Oyama sensei at the John Hancock hall in Boston years back. He would break bottles and stones with his open hands.

However, we see that in many situations the fist emerges by instinct.
Under stress a human being regresses to primal states and the hand clenches into the fist of the ape-man!

When you watch TV and doze off holding the remote in your hand, you wake up to a different channel after squeezing the unit involuntarily.

One theory is that under fear of falling out of the tree when falling asleep, the primate [us] clenches the hands into a fist to hold on to that tree limb.

Also, when under the influence of the chemical cocktail, as the blood drains from the extremities and rushes to the major muscle groups, the hands move into a somewhat “numb” state and the fist clenches automatically in trying to regain some feeling!

Additionally, as the muscles of the forearms tighten along with the rest of the body, there is an initial sympathetic reaction affecting the fingers!

As the fingers tend to initially clench to form a fist, we lose manual dexterity, we drop things, and we cause involuntary discharges of firearms if our trigger finger is kept inside the trigger guard!

This is the main reason Glock went to the “NY trigger pull” for guns issued to cops__ a twelve pounds pull...in an effort to avoid accidental discharges by police under stress.

What this means is that it is very difficult to deprogram the instinctive clench of the fist, a situation exacerbated by the 'operant conditioning' of practicing techniques where the punch is used over and over.
Punches to the body are more effective that open hands to the body…so we want to make sure that any practice takes this into consideration…body punches..yes…head punches…No.

Then hope for the best.

But it has been argued that most of us are only kidding ourselves that we will have the luxury to “selectively” use our weapons in the time segments allotted to us in a real fight vying for immediate psychological and physical control!

We will flail, and we will mentally “shut down” and throw windmill PUNCHES!

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:50 am 
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Open hand is preferable , however .......

if were using closed fists the predominant techniques i'd proram are hammer fists and back fists, both techniques banned in boxing for a reason...

both minimise the chance of directly striking the teeth , especially the hammer fist which doesnt hit with the knuckles but the more fleshy base of the hand, the circular pulling into the centre action of both rather than the throwing action of leading with the knuckles.The back fist yes more risk but targeting and angle make it safer IMHO but of course its all a risk verusus the palm heel drive, or the thumb pad version i use.

very primal and gross motor hammering action is a big power generator and personally I beleive its the hardest hand strike from my expirements.

if you must use the fist ( I discourage) I recomend not targeting with individual knuckles or two knuckles , but hit with the centre of the fist and the whole fist, Jack Dempsey reccomended the same when bare knuckle fighting , and taking a look at historial boxing the vetical fist and other variations is a great resource in this regard if you must , the angles changed because of the gloves , it has all been done before .


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:13 am 
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if you must use the fist ( I discourage) I recomend not targeting with individual knuckles or two knuckles , but hit with the centre of the fist and the whole fist, Jack Dempsey reccomended the same when bare knuckle fighting , and taking a look at historial boxing the vetical fist and other variations is a great resource in this regard if you must , the angles changed because of the gloves , it has all been done before .[/quote]

Heres a great tutorial from Carl Cestari that supports Strike's argument:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTAxNzk4MzY0.html

Yeah, it all has been done before.


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