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 Post subject: Jamming
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:39 pm 
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I think we all pretty much agree that blocking is a very poor attempt to control a fight and attacking the attack is much more effective. However, there is another approach that I like very much and that is limb destruction, covering with your elbows so that a superior puncher breaks his hands on your elbows or is unable to get a clear line of attack on you or actually attacking his limbs. Here's a clip of that sort of thing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEcDOEsz ... B794E113B2


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 Post subject: Re: Jamming
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:03 am 
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hi Ray thats pretty much my favourite application of the Seisan elbow , got a lot of time for Panantukan demos Ive seen pretty much Uechi compatible the way I practice it


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 Post subject: Re: Jamming
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:02 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTCHAVVhC_E

I prefer the outside line and getting of the spot , but this is all good flow IMHO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kig7ORidXGY

makes sense even in russian


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 Post subject: Re: Jamming
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:41 am 
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These are great examples of how to use a move we've done hundreds of thousands of times in seisan, perhaps mindlessly. Love the head butt thing that is in Stryke's post as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RXiOj7tvwA

This video shows the more obvious use from seisan.

I've been training this as part of a flinch response on my BOB. Makes you think more when doing seisan. and especially sanseiryu. I don't think enough thought goes into kata for most of us practicing uechi. lately I've been asking myself "what can I do with this.?"

Great videos. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Jamming
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:12 pm 
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I think FMA has themes in it, one of them is limb destruction.....and I do that now, if I do a wristlock I slam the wrist into my knee before I put it on. The most important part however is that when you meet somebody who is a lot better than you, who is faster and stronger then you can use your elbows as a defence and then attack his limbs " cut the corners" to use Musashi's terminology, and if you adopt their methodology then you can incorporate it into your own MA,,,,,,,it works very well with Wing chun, hubud and Chi Sao are cousins :lol: ...I also like the transitioning into and out of weapons......it really looks just like streetfighting with a plan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi7TPa1e ... re=related


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 Post subject: Re: Jamming
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:38 pm 
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Jamming...one of my favorite that worked extremely well in our tournaments days.

And the blade work with the karambit...awesome...it makes anyone think twice about being able to block or disarm or even jam someone like that Guro.

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 Post subject: Re: Jamming
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:31 pm 
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Yeah Van the karambit is an awesome weapon, but folks have known about a hawkbill blade for years before the karambit, not that I'm knocking it. It could cause horrible injuries, although the use of it looks really cool
this guy looks good
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O6MchAeAkc

and you can see how empty hand works into it


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 Post subject: Re: Jamming
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:57 am 
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Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Van Canna wrote:
And the blade work with the karambit...awesome...it makes anyone think twice about being able to block or disarm or even jam someone like that Guro.

Skip to 4:00 on this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T78lwKBIQYs
:D

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 Post subject: Re: Jamming
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:31 am 
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Ray,

True about the hawkbill and good work in the clip.

Glenn,

:lol: indeed.

~~

When thinking about all this...if you don't see the knife, whatever it may be, you will get stabbed or cut despite being good at empty hands defense no matter what system.

If you see the knife ... and if you must stay in the fight_ it is best to keep your distance and use cover if you can while going for improvised weapons...or reach for a real effective weapon you may carry, like a pistol.

Or take flight from the danger anyway you can.

Taking on a guy with a knife if you see it, with empty hands, is never recommended because fatal mistakes will be made, inviting death at our door.

I saw a guy get killed with a knife back in the old country and that sight is printed in my mind indelibly.

If you have a knife of your own, and you are trained in its use...it is still best not to get into a 'duel' ...and try to evade seeking cover...or take flight if possible.

Even if you shoot some assailant coming at you with a knife, you cannot be sure of 'stoppage' before he closes the distance and stabs you in the chaos and under the adrenaline dump, unless you score a head shot, which is also not likely, even at close range, under the dump.

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 Post subject: Re: Jamming
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:58 am 
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Here is something interesting by Peyton Quinn
Quote:
While it is true that we can identify things we have never seen before this is achieved largely through interpolation of things we have already seen before. And sometimes we can get it wrong too.

An experienced homicide detective some years ago allowed me to read his reports of several witnesses testimony to a violent, criminal act they had seen. It was apparent to me that each whiteness told a somewhat different story, and some told a very different story about what they thought they had seen. The detective then told me: "Peyton, if 10 people witness an act of violence, then you will get 10 different stories"

Having laid out this basic conceptual foundation of visual perception let's now look at its practical impact on self-defense and environmental awareness.

From a training point of view if you have never seen a person pull a gun or knife on you, then you might not 'see them' pull a gun or knife on you immediately if they do so for real. The same goes for the 'sucker punch'.

In our RMCAT classes I have seen such blatant examples of this and yet it still can truly surprise me! For example in the scenario based firearms course me and a co-instructor were walking out from behind the Shoji wall for a scenario with an attendant.The course had already gone through the legal module and so they knew the conditions necessary for them to even lawfully present (display) their gun.

This particular time my co-instructor's blank firing pistol accidentally fell out of his belt where it was concealed in the small of his back. This was not 20 feet from the student. Yet that student did not even see or respond to this and my co-instructor calmly turned around and picked up the pistol and slipped it back into his belt.

Now since most shootings occur in dim light we were training in dim light too but even so the video showed it so clearly that the student could not imagine how or why he did not see it when he later watched that video. He was flabbergasted.

In the portal of safety drill in the Hand to Hand fighting course we also see something similar. In this drill the student has a soft bat and he or she is to only produce the bat and strike at the instructor's hand when the instructor produces a large bowie knife for an 'attack'.


I have seen police and even very well known martial arts people totally miss the large shiny Bowie knife being drawn on them from 10 feet away. Now part of this is because they were adrenalized and thus tended to 'tunnel into the face' of the person who might be verbally threatening them.


But there is also the fact that they have never had an irate person come up to them and draw a big bowie knife on them before either. So they did not immediately 'see it" happen. Their visual cortex may not have an 'instant decode' for this drawing of a bowie knife in this context.


How many of us really think of this stuff,smug in what we think we know? :D

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 Post subject: Re: Jamming
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:36 am 
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Posts: 398
It's how you practice.

Do you practice the pre contact quest, do you drill drawing weapons

If you do your drilling taking the man before the opportunity.

The versus knife stuff is after you've already done so much ,and so much has gone wrong


Is different from sportive mindset


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 Post subject: Re: Jamming
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:10 pm 
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Quote
"Is different from sportive mindset"

Yes it is, one of my friends sent me clip of a full contact event, but with protective equipment. It seemed to me a trade of punches and kicks. Although the guys involved were a lot younger than I am ( and I hate old men who talk tough)....I think I would have won, and this would be simply down to mindset. The difference being that if I found an opening then I would punish them dearly, I just wouldn't let up..they can skip and dance around for 20 moniutes but I reckon that I only need a minute or two, close in fighting continuosly none stop, until they are down.....of course if I met a younger,stronger guy with the same mindset I don't think that I would last :lol: ..............it takes a while to see the difference, but when you do see it, then you realise that old,fat, unfit people can be just as dangerous as young guns if they have the correct mindset


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 Post subject: Re: Jamming
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:48 pm 
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Good points by Stryke.

From a personal viewpoint, I still see the very best training _being the one that combines the adrenaline factor with the simplest empty hands and weapons 'schooling' and 'drilling' _ that develop concepts most likely to work.

In the past I covered in detail the excellent training in all these aspects at RMCAT ~Peyton Quinn~


Worth taking another look.

http://www.rmcat.com/

http://stresshooting.com/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=88

Quote:
Things learned under adrenal stress are not ‘forgotten’ and actually, can not be ‘forgotten’ under stress in the way that things learned under ‘non adrenal circumstances’ can be.

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 Post subject: Re: Jamming
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:03 pm 
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Good posts, Ray I tend to agree , however sport skillet has it's place, if I had to summarise, if say sport is focused on scoring the opportunities, and combatives is utilizing the opportunities, the kind of compounds attacks were considering are hampered by the ruleset, but the mutual confrontation sport model is opportunity and surviving between the combatives.

But your point is well taken, and Lairds students proved it in competition.

Van pressure testing is key once students are ready for it, pressure makes diamonds, and brings out the real skillsets and attributes without any fantasy


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 Post subject: Re: Jamming
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:36 am 
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There is much to this stuff that we can argue about it forever and ever.

Sport karate is an important tool in our self defense tool box, and it may be one we ignore at our own risk.

Sport Karate athletes do a lot of ancillary athletic training to increase their speed, strength, explosive power, focus, coordination, body conditioning , timing, evasive off line drills_ in avoiding being hit or tagged_ endurance_ and even more important…deliberation and determination, along with expenditure of vigorous energy, especially in the use of initiative and forcefulness making an all-out effort to win or succeed.

It also conditions the body and mind to dominate an adversary. All attributes that help in a real encounter because of the experience gained in the 'face offs' with opponents of different sizes, weight, and skills who are trying to take you out.

But there is something even more important that occurs subliminally:

Personal Growth - Facing weakness and the fact that there might be people more qualified than you out there takes courage. Doing something about it guarantees personal growth.

That feeling that says, "Are you good enough?" right on top of that feeling of "You are moments away from proving yourself."

It is hard to develop some of the qualities without stepping into a ring, to test them.

You won't step out of the ring assured that you can defend yourself, but these qualities alone will insure you have what it takes to develop the skill necessary to defend yourself with honor.

Free fighting, and more so _tournament competition_ gets the practitioner to experience the adrenaline dump to a certain extent, where he will learn the affects of it _on his mind and body.

Again I look at this as critical tools to neatly line up in your tool box…but that is only a beginning.

Body conditioning, especially the hardening of the striking limbs [our natural weapons] is a must, something that I continue to do on a daily basis, because you want to be sure that your 'impact weapon' will not fracture upon contact, and you will not fold when your limbs are targeted for incapacitation.

Next comes more serious adrenaline scenario training, as we see in RMCAT_with and without weapons along the force continuum.

Young or old, any street opponent can take us out when fueled by determination and or weaponry.

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Van


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