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 Post subject: gun disarming
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:42 pm 
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Location: worcester, ma
I just got done watching many clips of security video footage where the victim tries to wrestle the gun away from the assailant during a robbery. Now I will assume this footage is “hand picked” but not once did the gun fire and I am wondering why. I have seen video of Victor Marx disarm (that could be an entire subject on its own) but I always have in my head that if you tried something like that the gun would fire. However in the real life footage over and over the gun does not fire because of the struggle. The footage I watched shows a good variation of fire arms from 44mag revolver to 9mm Glock even shot gun. So I can’t say it’s a single action vs double action. Is it possible that a portion of assailants in this footage did not have their finger on the trigger? Is it just random luck?
Many years ago I remember a story of an officer getting into a struggle with an armed assailant during a traffic stop the officer was pushed down into the car and the gun fired while his hand was on the barrel. The result was burns on his hand, blinded and deaf he just tried to yell into his radio office down because he couldn’t hear his own voice. His account was very powerful and after hearing it I felt that a disarming action probably only has a very slim chance of working. In the officers case it did save his life but it was far from the action hero image most people have.
I know many “defense experts” show how to disarm an assailant but what’s the reality of it?


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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:50 pm 
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Good thread.

Maloney and I went through gun disarms with Mas Ayoob...as you see here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH-JpNXcuPA

Notice the first move is a sideways step off the line of fire as you palm the gun arm away from you and then use your right to rotate the barrel into the 'bad guy' which in theory causes his trigger finger to pop out of the trigger guard so he won't be able to fire.

But, in real life, none of this will really happen the way we see it....And under the adrenaline dump, you will make 'dexterity' mistakes that might cost your life and the life of the persons you might be with.

After the course, Mas was quick to add that it is something to try only in dire situations....

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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:15 am 
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Location: Banff AB
I think the best gun disarm is a double tap!

Empty hand against any weapon is not something I ever want to do. I train it but I see it as a bit of a fools errand. It's something I hope to avoid.

Jim put out a great tape on this material, I think it's about the best I've seen. Suspect some of it is the same material that was taught by LFI. I liked it!

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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:03 am 
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Agree with Laird, however having said that, if your doing the disarm that I think both Laird and Van are discussing I don't see you keeping your finger let alone firing. But the problem remains of getting the disarm before they can pull the trigger.

Practicing the disarms, you don't keep your finger in the trigger guard for long and stay in one piece


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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:28 am 
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Pretty cool how vans clip shows a sanchin draw to deflect and get offline, and a sanchin thrust to disarm

muscle memory rocks ;)


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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:34 am 
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Right on Laird and Stryke.

Mas Showed us how he will break your finger in the twisting trigger guard,as action would beat reaction everytime at close range.

Again all in theory...and think about it...how often would you need to practice this 'disarm' before it becomes somewhat ingrained?

And on the street, how many of the punks with a gun, would really walk that close to you 'inviting' a disarm?

Our Clarence, when ordered up into his house kitchen by a druggie with a gun at his back, was standing 6 feet away from the puke bag when he charged him, knowing he was about to be shot.

He did grab the gun, the punk held on to it [without being able to fire it] as he got thrown to the floor...

Once on the floor, Clarence told me he was not able to twist the gun out of his hands as the punk snaked around, got up, jumped over the kitchen table, and came back up firing the gun sideways, hitting Clarence three times.

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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:48 am 
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Yes, Maloney's tape reflected Mas and J. Farnam's teachings on 'disarms'...

Now, on gun handling in general
Quote:
While gun handling is not a perishable skill, it is certainly a corrosion-prone one. The skills don't really die, but they sure can get rusty fast.


Read this carefully....

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob031207.html

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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:51 am 
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Quote:
Solid nose, or "ball" ammunition, while fine for practice and target shooting, is overpenetrative for the self-defense function. A round of GI .45 hardball will pierce a full 26 inches of muscle tissue-simulating ballistic gelatin. That means if three average-size people are standing in a row, such a bullet can go through and through the chests of the first two and lodge in the heart of the third. Not the sort of thing you want to unleash in your own family's home, or on a city street.

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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:59 am 
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Quote:
Whenever a drawn gun is out, whether you're holding it in one hand or two, keep it out in front of you and in a safe direction where you can see it. The typical "low ready" position is with the muzzle down, 45 degrees to the target. This keeps you from inadvertently pointing at someone who suddenly happens to emerge in front of you, and if a shot is fired it will go safely into the ground.

You don't want to let the gun get down below line of sight. If you do, it will wind up pointing at your own lower extremities or those of others. There will also be the possibility that the gun will now snag on unseen brush or other obstacles, which could trigger an accidental discharge.

If you're searching for something that went bump in the night, anyone behind you can grab a gun out of your hand held down to your side before you can react. But, if the gun is out in front of you, their arm will have to pass into your field of vision before grabbing your gun, buying you time to perform a retention technique and counter the disarming attempt. As a general rule: If you can't see your own drawn gun, you are not in control of the weapon.

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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:04 am 
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http://www.tacticalanatomy.com/primer-t ... efense.htm

Sobering article.

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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:19 pm 
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Location: worcester, ma
i think how close the assaliant gets to you is in relation to what their intent is. most of the video i have seen shows they are well within disarming range. i belive this is because they are looking for a quick grab and run. they need to get close to grab the cash. if the assaliant is looking to go from crime scene one to crime scene two then yes they will be trying to keep a safe distance or if they feel any kind of threat they will also try to keep distance. this is only human nature.
i would like to see disarming practiced from real life situations. nothing against Ayoob but the gun to your back thing isnt going to happen. how about disarming with a store counter between you and the bad guy or maybe the gun right in your face while you are sitting on a low hight chair.


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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:38 pm 
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Good points, Hoshin.

Yet any type of disarm is very dangerous to do under the fear factor that will grip us in the street. But, if to be done as a last resort, then it might be well to learn and practice endlessly or the 'skill' will perish.

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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:55 am 
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I take close quarter handgun disarming very seriously, I taught for many years. IMO, the only ones training in it should be Law Enforcement, Military, serious Security men and advanced (intermediate maybe) students of the Martial Arts. The only caveat is they are all willing to put in the necessary hours, which are many.

I have no disagreements with anything shown. But, in any new physical endeavour, the first thing taught/mentioned/practiced - is the strongest thing remembered and most naturally replicated in real world operation. Handgun disarming is new to everyone the first time they are taught and practice it. Again, IMO, the first thing taught should be "Blade the body". This IS shown in the videos, but not pointed out. Whatever initial move you make, either by choice or necessity, your body should be blading as you do it. "Blading" is rotating on an axis either going down your center line or your shoulder, leg, whatever, so as to be shrinking as a target as the gun is fired. If it's the basis of the initial training, it's what the person will build all else around - instead of focusing on the gun with tunnel vision which is what most people tend to do.

With enough good training, weapon disarming isn't as difficult as one might think. (if you are close enough). But, yes, I'm sure it would be even scarier than we picture it. But it sure beats just taking one.


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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:39 am 
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Getting the leverage required generally means you have to have the weapon closer to you than the opponent or at least be able to get your mass over it , that kind of puts any reaching disarms in context IMHO

of course getting the weapon that close highlights the risks of disarms .

one thing I would add is while doing the disarm you retain the ability to attack,attacking while disarming is the mindset IMHO.

Ottos post is important blading and getting of line are first , from my perspective this sort of movement skills should permeate everything we do from day one , it makes disarms a extension of skillsets , and more likely to be retained , than another option to another option

is your disarm/weapons work congruent with your empty hands work

do you consistantly look to get off the line of force in what you do
do you consistantly look to attack and defend simultaneuosly
do you look to close and control while attacking, controlling limbs/facing and chaining.

all this stuff is core Uechi principle IMHO and goes along way to building the skillests required for disarms.

Disarms to me are really a combination of skills that need to be developed , locks , positioning , covers , entrys , replacing , attacking


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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:00 am 
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Good points, Otto.

As always, operant conditioning will make us or break us. And as you point out the 'tunnel vision' on the gun will be a real problem, as well as the loss of fine motor skills.

Body Blading will be another hurdle for someone who does not practice this technique in their martial arts system.

Another serious problem in a disarm move is the exposure to other people in the area to the gun possibly going off during the attempt.

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