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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:32 pm 
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Good post Stryke, and lots to learn from it.

What I was left with, after training disarms with Ayoob and Farnam, was_that _

1.Being attacked with a handgun is a frightening and dangerous experience that affects body alarm reactions in profound ways_impacting on your abilities.

2. That in almost all cases, your attacker will have more experience in this kind of situation than you do.

3.Best not to be overconfident,as those skills you think you have in going after the gun may quickly perish in a chaotic moment when your subconscious perceives you may be about to die.

4. And unless you are familiar with the types of guns most likely to be used by a robber i.e., how they function...how they are rendered inert_ don't try
disarms, as a large part of disarm training is concerned with immobilizing or otherwise making the weapon useless, as you gain control of it.

5.If you don't know anything about guns, no matter how well trained you are, you will not be able to do this quickly and will be unlikely able to maintain control of the gun.

~~

I think those are wise concepts.

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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:44 pm 
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Assuming you were able to disarm someone out of his .45 1911_now you will be holding a likely 'loaded and cocked' pistol without the safety being on.

1. Do you think that the person you disarmed will just walk away or 'charge' you, in an attempt to get his gun back?
If he does, what would you do with the gun?

2. Or now that you have the pistol, would you be trying to hold the person at gun point?

3. But say the person runs away. What will you now do with the loaded gun in your hand? Throw it away? Make it safe by unloading it?

If so, describe how you would unload this gun safely.

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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:49 pm 
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And here's something worth reading....

http://military-fitness.military.com/20 ... -move.html

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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:56 pm 
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This I also like.

http://www.usadojo.com/articles/deadly-gun-disarm.htm

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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:00 pm 
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And this is very good...

http://www.combativemind.com/general-se ... e-sheeple/

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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:46 am 
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Quote:
Lack Of Realism

This kind of confidence would be fine if it weren’t for the fact that the conditions under which the techniques are practiced are completely unrealistic.

Aside from the lack of realism in the type of environment in which the techniques are practiced, and also the lack of any real pressure and the knowledge that no one can get hurt, the single biggest factor lacking in these scenarios is the psychological shock element.

Point a rubber gun at someone and they barely flinch. Point a real gun at someone and convincingly threaten to kill them if they don’t do as you say, and that person will likely ##### themselves and do exactly as you say. They’d be mentally terrified and physically frozen. It’s kinda hard to pull off a good disarm technique when you’re in that kind of shock. I’d say it’s near impossible.

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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:03 am 
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Crucial stuff Van , and all this is amplified for knives which are perhaps even more lethal at grab range

good to practice but to keep in perspective.

having good awareness and a good counter ambush, and being able to recognise the ques before folks can access weapons becomes even more important , equalisers and improvised weapons next(Rick has some good material) , and empty hands is a last ditch choice.


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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:19 pm 
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Knife disarms are a mystery to me. I just can't do them, have no feel for them and don't think I ever will. Practiced them for years as part of knife fighting - but I never even had a whiff of success. Would have been cut/killed every damn time. That bothered me for a long while, but, ah well, just one of the many things I'm not any good at.


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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:48 pm 
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Location: worcester, ma
The one flaw in disarm teachings I see over and over is that there is usually little or no thought put into the conditions or the scenario of the confrontation. I feel that before we begin working on technique we must take into consideration the situation. These are the scenarios I can think of that I would be facing an armed assailant.
Burglary. This I think is the most common situation. I like to break it into 2 categories
1, I am the target
2, I am a bystander
Home invasion could fall into this category along with carjacking. My thinking is that the intent of the crime is to relive you of your property.
Next would be random act of violence or as I like to call it sport violence. This is where gang members go out in hunt to find some poor person to attack just for fun or you might be mistaken for a rival.
Another common scenario would be an escalated augment. You’re in a public location you bump shoulders and the argument ensues next thing you know the guy is waving a gun in your face.
Kidnapping, I would usually think of this as a rape scenario for women but it could be a ransom kidnap for men especially over seas.
The last thing I can think of is the mass victim shooting.

I truly believe the intent will condition the actions of the assailant. i belive every scenario creates a different mind set for the assaliant. If I can understand the likely actions and reactions I will have a better understanding of what might happen and allow me to modify training techniques that will have a better chance of working.
Am I missing any scenarios that might happen, anything I can add to my list, comments?


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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:27 pm 
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Otto
"Knife disarms are a mystery to me. I just can't do them, have no feel for them and don't think I ever will. Practiced them for years as part of knife fighting - but I never even had a whiff of success. Would have been cut/killed every damn time. That bothered me for a long while, but, ah well, just one of the many things I'm not any good at."

I don't like them at all, even when I do Escrima I find fault with them.however folks like to talk about realism, and say stuff like " You always get cut in a knife fight etc".personally I have never had a knife fight, buuuuuuut the last case that I worked on before I retired was dealing with a knife attack. It happened in a kebab house between to foreign guys. The attacker had mental health issues. the defender fought him off and the attacker dropped his knife, but the nproduced another from his waist band, the defender managed to wrestle him to the ground and pin him.his only injury - a cut finger 8O


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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:31 pm 
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Quote:
The one flaw in disarm teachings I see over and over is that there is usually little or no thought put into the conditions or the scenario of the confrontation.
~Hoshin

Amen...and this goes for any type of confrontation,armed or unharmed,where you will find the surprise factor and the fear factor driving your response actions.

Yeah, we like to talk about real life.

I'll give you a couple of my cases that I investigated. Actually three>>>

1. A 25 yr old girl working in the cashier booth of a boston movie house.

A 22 year old loser who got ditched by his girl friend.

Loser opens door of cashier's booth and sticks a longblade into the girl's right back, severing the liver in two.

~~
2. Two neighbors, husband and wifes, constantly feuding about some problem.

One neighbor working behind the counter of a pizza shop. A Sicilian brought up with a knife culture to settle arguments.

The other neighbor brings a friend to the pizza shop as a lookout to stand by the front door in slow business hours, while he goes in, reaches over the counter and grabs the Sicilian by the neck trying to strangle him.

The Sicilian grabs a 12 inch knife, from behind the counter, and shoves it right through the attacker's belly, with the point of the blade coming through the back.

He then pulls the blade out and starts to chase the lookout guy by the door who runs along main street like hell, pissing his pants.

~~

3. Young woman, living on the top floor of an apartment building in the Roxbury area of Boston, breaks up with a Jamaican gangbanger, who then stalks her.

Enter, New boyfriend, a karate black belt.

One late evening the black belt says good night to the girl-friend, and starts to descend the stairs down to the street. The gangbanger is waiting in ambush on the second floor down...

Witnesses tell me they first heard a 'hey...hey...hey...' then a terrible tumbling noise down the stairs, sounding like trash barrels being kicked down.

Next they hear cries for help 'he is stabbing me...he is stabbing me...' then a final blood curdling yell as the gangbanger cuts his throat.

I was on the scene the next morning...the walls and the ceiling of the small entrance lobby, were all bloodied by the blood squirting out of the carotid arteries.

~~

Now that's 'REAL LIFE" my friends.

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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:34 pm 
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From the link above
Quote:
That picture is a representation of the woe that I feel every time I see a picture or a video of someone disarming someone else of a knife or a gun. Without exception, in these videos, the person doing the technique is invariably calm, relaxed and unhesitant in their response. Their movements are quick and smooth. They make the whole thing seem effortless (it’s very much like watching someone do a magic trick actually).

And that’s because disarming a fully compliant training partner who has a rubber knife or gun trained on you while you both stand in a matted training area, is effortless. With just a little practice, it can become ridiculously easy to disarm someone who is holding a (fake) weapon on you.

The relative ease with which you are able to do these techniques is an underlying problem associated with these magic tricks, because it creates a sense of false confidence in the practitioner. After a few hundred repetitions, a person could start to feel like they really could disarm someone of a real knife or gun if they had to.

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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:31 am 
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Again from the link above
Quote:
Although let’s be clear here: The chances of you actually taking a knife of someone who really doesn’t want to give it to you, and to do so without sustaining (potentially serious or fatal) damage, are slim to none. I’m not saying you couldn’t do it cleanly, without taking damage. Anything is possible. But really, when you think about it, what are the odds?

More importantly: Are the consequences of trying and likely failing worth it to you? I guess that would depend on how much danger you thought you were in at the time.

Another thing you should be aware of: If someone really wanted to stab you, you probably wouldn’t know it until after you’d been stabbed, or at least attacked in some way.

Someone who threatens with a knife is doing just that, threatening you, not attacking you. They are trying to scare you into giving them what they want. This will be clear in their instructions to you. Listen to them and give them what they want and you will most likely survive the encounter unscathed (physically anyway)


I know this goes against the 'grain' of most of us trained martial artists
full of 'confidence' doesn't it?

If you are out and about with your wife/family, and some punk pulls a knife and says 'give me the money' ...what is your reaction, right now?

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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:25 am 
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Quote:
what are the odds?


of taking out an opponent with a force multiplier with empty hands ......

well with all things being equal its an unfair fight

now give them surprise agression , intent .....

I think the most realistic disarm is shutting them down, attack and defend in one movement , control the weapon but most importantly destroy the man.

anything else is akin to the blocking threads IMHO

I have no problem handing over my cash


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 Post subject: Re: gun disarming
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:17 pm 
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Well no fight is ever fair or they would all result in draws.shutting someone down who has attacked you with surprise on their side when you may be injured would be very difficult, even to access a weapon may be very difficult. I have spent some time trying to think of the best, most lethal strikes or one-offs for this type of situation, things like a palm heel striking upwards to the chin, or an elbow strike to the temple. I think that in our arsenal we must have a handful of techniques like this which we practice till boredome sets in, and combination attacks which do the same sort of thing...also easy takedowns and controlling techniques to give us a better chance if we ever have to confront such a thing.


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