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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:52 pm 
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Well, I still think we can say it is all in the way we train and who is the person doing the training.

There is no question in my mind, after having been involved in contact sports, that any practitioner needs to be 'educated' in 'force on force' mind and body conditioning that comes close to a street slammer free for all.

The clip Ray posted bring a smile to my face because that slapping technique is one we practice constantly, both on the 'Bob' and in drills where it is pulled with light contact.

Some of my students slap 'Bob' so hard that if you stand near the Bob you need ear plugs from the sound of it.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:20 pm 
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Yeah Van........ A bitch slap or a palm heel is a bitch slap or a palm heel whichever way you want to call it :lol: .....the Aiki folks like to roll out of it, others just do it as a ballistic strike...however whichever way that you do it, the result will be the same.palm heels are awesome, I do them on my Bob all the time.they are a fantastic finisher.one strike , one kill :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:27 pm 
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Wes Tasker, Pekiti Tirsia Guro, showed our group the best way to KO an opponent with the power slap.

You hang your striking arm by your side in a relaxed, natural way…your hand relaxed.

Then you slap by torqueing, twisting your body into the slap, which should contact with a cupped hand driving air into the 'ear area' of the opponent's face…

You follow thru in an arc, slightly bending your knees, with the right hand wanting to touch your left waist, where you would draw a blade for a come back slash.

One thing I remind my students is that 'bitch slapping' someone is serious business not to be taken lightly, because if you don't ko or stop the adversary, he will be pissed off to no end, and you will have to deal with a bull's rush, something to avoid at all cost especially if facing a burly opponent.

So I teach it as a preliminary strike to be followed by a chopping shin strike down to any part of the opponent's legs, preferably to the inside of the opponent's lower legs…a shot that will fly 'under the radar' especially when the opponent's attention is to his burning face from the slap.

One good reason why we condition our shins on a daily basis.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:28 pm 
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That idea of flying under the radar is one reason why I really like the default Uechi stance with the arms open in front of you as if to say "I don't want any trouble, Mister". Other various bareknuckle and gloved guard stances telegraph fighting intent which itself could lead to situations escalating.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:04 pm 
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Good point Mark. It is seen as a 'placating' gesture instead of a ready to fight position.

Another good reason to develop a number of low leg kicks/stomps to opponents' knees and below, is because the opponent will experience tunnel vision, with his eyes tunneling on your head area where he wants to land his strikes, or your hands especially if you have something in them.

So most likely he will not see or see too late to evade/block certain shots to his lower legs that can damage him pretty good, especially if he doesn't spend time conditioning bone as Uechi does.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:36 am 
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I see, so their tunnel vision will prevent them from seeing your low-kick coming. What type of lower leg conditioning do you practice/recommend? So far, the only conditioning that I have done is from hitting the heavy bag and other people or when raising my leg to check kicks thrown by others.

Aside from conditioning the shins, I would like to know what your thoughts are on iron palm/toe training. Do you believe in the use of herbal creams (e.g. liniment) on areas that are being conditioned? They don't seem to be as popular among the Japanese as they are with the Chinese and Thai practitioners. I'm curious as to whether they actually help reduce the risk of arthritis in areas being conditioned.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:51 pm 
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Quote
"One thing I remind my students is that 'bitch slapping' someone is serious business not to be taken lightly, because if you don't ko or stop the adversary, he will be pissed off to no end, and you will have to deal with a bull's rush, something to avoid at all cost especially if facing a burly opponent.

So I teach it as a preliminary strike to be followed by a chopping shin strike down to any part of the opponent's legs, preferably to the inside of the opponent's lower legs…a shot that will fly 'under the radar' especially when the opponent's attention is to his burning face from the slap."


Well I would say that there are important lessons to learn here..the first being that in MA's there are sparring style like boxing were you duel, and CQB styles were you just train at a quick knockdown, like target shooting................the difficulty , and a thing that most people don't realise is that karate can encompasse both arenas 8)

With the bitch slap I tend to use principles that I learned in Aikido, I think of a bitch slap as a sword strike as I step forward with my right foot my left foot slide behind me so I am to the opponent's left side if I strike with my right hand, then I can use a backfist or whatever...but if you do Uechi I would imagine that the shuto/backfist/ knuckle punch combo could also be use if you think of the shuto as a bitch slap

I agree that low level kicks are really good, but I also find that a knee strike to your opponents thigh can be equally unnerving and can totally deaden his leg so you can run away if you wish.this is best incorprated in a "Rush" attack with your fists then the knee just comes up as you go in 8)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:01 pm 
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On conditioning people have different views and use different implements. Some over-condition looking for the magic bullet and hurt themselves for the long run.

Personally, this is what I do:

1. I use the 'iron arm' _ see here http://uechiryu-karate.com/products_ironarm.htm_ have used it for many years.

I keep it down the basement on a table next to where my shoes are, so I must 'go by it' at least twice a day as I put on my shoes and take them off coming back home. Next to the iron arm I have a heavy rolling pin_ http://www.amazon.com/Crestware-18-Inch ... B00857WJ68

I don't go back up the stairs unless I use the iron arm to tap shins/forearms, etc. as you see in the link on the product.

Then I use the rolling pin up and down the shins pressing down hard to desensitize the nerve endings on the shins.

2. When at the dojo, we use similar implements for the tapping and rolling….then we strike a heavy bag which is placed standing on the floor with students taking turns holding it and kicking it…then we finish with two men conditioning drills where we kick and absorb kicks up and down the inside/outside of the legs…bone on bone.

We then perform the arm rubbing and pounding along the same idea with a partner plus striking the 'Bob'_


~~

We do have 'wall makiwara' to practice the 'iron palm' and padding attached to the bottom of the wall to practice toe kicks, as well as tapping each other's legs/shins with toes.

Strong toes are a Uechi icon and very effective in front kicks even with shoes on.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:16 pm 
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Good points Ray and I agree. The reason why I follow the instructions of Wes Tasker [Pekiti Tirsia] in throwing the slap angling down as sword strike like you mention...to the hip, so I can 'return' the arc with a cutting shuto to the neck or back fist, as you say, followed by leg/knee strikes.

The knee strikes we practice them with a partner holding, a heavy bag standing on the floor, against one leg and then the other, in a dynamic fashion_ as the student closes the distance and fires off knee strikes with torque and compression of the body ...to the front...inside...and outside of the bag being held _to simulate strikes to the opponent legs/pelvis area.

Mark,

As to liniments, I personally don't use them, but Surely they must help somehow.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:02 pm 
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Some students avoid the leg kicks/knee strikes as they feel kicks to the body/head are more effective. Maybe so, but in the chaos of combat and under the adrenaline dump, mistakes can be made easily, and the body kicks grabbed.

People should watch some soccer matches to see how the powerful legs of the soccer players can cut down an opposing player by kicking/kneeing him in the legs.

As a soccer striker, I had very muscular and powerful legs needed for the shots on goal from a distance.

It became obvious that kicks landing to opponent's legs instead of the ball, were mostly taking a man down, thus the 'yellow card' _

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPX2kWGxlgw

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:05 pm 
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Thank you for the link - I'll order one of those iron arms and a rolling pin when I move into my new place next month. From your description of the dojo, you guys seem to spend a lot more time on dedicated conditioning exercises than we do. The emphasis in KK seems to be more on fitness (strength and cardio) with most of the iron body coming passively from being hit during sparring.

The link that you posted advises against conditioning joints. I'm wondering then how you feel about exercises such as this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_TKEn9X ... be&t=2m13s ?

Also, Tamayose Sensei is saying in the video that they don't start hardening exercises until 3rd dan (after 20 years of practice)? This must be a dojo-specific policy?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:29 pm 
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Mark

the Chinese use "Jow" as medicine for hardening hands..one of my teachers studied iron palm in China, but it was related to Soft styles like Tai Chi and was more a mental thing than a physical thing, when you look at real Iron palm it's a messy business.you ruin your hands

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulXzfJq3Dd0

you can use "Tiger Balm" to help, I suppose.but these guys use Jow, and there are many different recipes.I would always air on the side of caution....although the Chinese do have real knowledge................." Don't rub an elephant in the same place for too long............but don't be surprised by a real dragon" :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:49 pm 
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Mark,

We all have our opinions on this, including martial arts masters. Conditioning is a multistep process over time done in a safe manner. It is true that old Okinawan masters spent much more time in training and conditioning than any of us. Also anyone who has spent much time in Okinawa will have developed a higher degree of body conditioning than most.

I think the general feeling today is that it is best to teach conditioning early on and to do it safely in stages, without expectations of grandeur.

Anything we do can be taken to an extreme, but then we must ask 'to what end'?

Moderation is the key in conditioning, unless you envision going on stage breaking baseball bats and piles of bricks.

As important as conditioning is _in a street fight _the cardio/strength/fitness is perhaps more critical because it ensures the efficiency of the delivery vehicle under the adrenaline surge, and I agree with the KK fighters that iron body does happen passively from the hits of full contact competition/sparring…much like you see in professional soccer players.

For us _The importance of conditioning is so that our striking limbs do not fold when striking and that generally taking hard contact will not destroy our fighting resolve. Again moderation is the key.

Something else needs to be addressed:

Many martial artists lack an understanding or deny the hormonal adrenaline surge and its effects, a fear based reaction hard wired in human beings, _when in a survival situation, such as a street fight.

Adrenaline is a double edged sword: while it makes one stronger, faster, and more aware, it also impairs one's critical thinking and saps our endurance, chopping our breathing mechanism. Its purpose is to give a human 60 seconds of superhuman attack strength, or the speed to run and hide. [The fight or flight reflex]_

Adrenaline can make a person fight back so frantically that although they are fighting hard, the techniques are uncoordinated and not very effective. This ineffective, frantic way of fighting back is essentially “flailing”.

This surge can be managed, and one of the best ways is to compete more often _placing yourself at risk of being hit pretty hard _thus getting used to protection engagement.

Again my opinion is to go very easy, if at all, with joints conditioning because you might be genetically at risk as well as overdoing it and paying the price as you age.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:01 pm 
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Mark a well conditioned body is a fine weapon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH8t-okjT38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l7pCeHUzR4

My favorite weapons in Uechi are the shin and the forearm there is a reason to condition them they are great to strike with! It’s not about blocks it’s about strikes. You can see a simple checked kick can end the dance if the person checking the kick has been well conditioned.

The clip you posted the Uechi sensei has massive forearms from conditioning them. Imagine getting hit in the back of the brain stem with a rock hard arm like that. There is a reason sporting events don’t allow strikes to the brain stem, however self defense has a different rule set.

My training partners condition forearms and shins on a makiwara made of two 2x4’s they slap together to dissipate force instead of breaking. Some one swinging a shinbone or forearm at your body that can break one 2x4 with them will do lots of damage if they land. It’s like getting hit with rebar!

To me the value of conditioning is not surviving damage it is inflicting it. However the ability to take a shot is a bonus of iron shirt training.

I can’t find any clips of conditioning on my old hard drive…I’ll keep looking. Maybe Rick Wilson can post some clips of makiwara training or his own iron shirt training they are very good.

Here is an old clip of me teaching a student to throw a shin kick off of a jammed knee strike. In the beginning he is kicking the makiwara apparatus. It’s wrapped in a 1/2 inch of foam to prevent cuts from the corners of the boards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B1g1yZ1KeI

I prefer a training devise that offers some absorption as it encourages the student to use proper body mechanics with more power. As we progress we can seek a more rigid device.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:17 pm 
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I agree with Van sensei conditioning is a gradual process. However if you engage in the activity you will be surprised at how quickly you progress. I see no down side to the activity if it is engaged in slowly and you listen to your body.

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