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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:04 am 
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The clip posted by Laird shows very plainly how effective shin and forearm conditioning can be, my favorites as well. Also notice the way The shin kick 'angles in' like the blade of an axe chopping a tree.

Excellent stuff, Laird.

Rick Wilson devotes every Saturday morning class to 100% conditioning.

I would not recommend beating up your knuckles to puff them up. Tomoyose sensei, when in Boston, would strike an incoming punch with puffed up knuckles, with a boshiken or even a shoken, much to the dismay of the person throwing the punch.

He also warned us against the beating up of joints.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:42 am 
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Jorvik - Yes, I know that iron palm is a controversial practice with risks involved. It's the aspect of training that I'm most ambivalent about, which is why I like to get opinions from those who have been doing the practice for many years. I heard from one or two sources that lost during the transmission of iron palm from the Chinese to the Japanese was the use of herbal ointments in recovery and that this was missing factor in safe iron body practice. Another thought I had is that if arthritis can result from chronic injury/inflammation of a joint, can putting ice on that joint after practice (to reduce the acute swelling) help reduce the long-term risk of arthritis as well?

Sensei Van - Slow and steady seems to be sound advice. It also seems logical to start early as there is an assumption that the fighter can apply a technique without hurting him/herself in the process.

Your point on adrenaline is also well-taken. One of my KK instructors told me that we train our cardio intervals for 5 minute rounds (instead of the actual 3 minutes needed in KK tournaments) because the heightened anxiety of being in a live tournament bout will sap your energy so much that a person having trained for 5 minute rounds will only be effective for about 2-3 minutes.

Another real life example - one of my friends worked as a security guard in nightclubs for a few years and witnessed fights on a regular basis. He said that the general pattern was that people would through 4-5 punches each and then quickly run of gas, then wait to be separated by their friends so that they could catch their breath.

Feur - I have seen that first video before and I agree it's really nasty. I believe the Iron Hammer that Van Canna Sensei posted is essentially the same as what you're describing. Two pieces of wood briefly separated so that there is some 'give' upon impact. I'm going to try this iron hammer because it looks simple and portable. Perhaps one day I'll progress to using a baseball bat like the Sensei in the video? I have seen videos of Shinjo Sensei and some KK fighters in Japan breaking multiple bats with their kicks.


Last edited by MarkNoble on Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:55 am 
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I don't believe you can condition a joint, but your can train it and feed it. Train it to move under resistance thru the full range of motion. This will make you stronger and harder to submit. Club bells kettle bells and yoga come to mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6cOUu8wBWo

One range on a long lever.

Keep the joints lubricated with fluid by feeding them thru diet and exercise.
Move it or lose it.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:13 am 
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Good tips on conditioning

I am a big fans of shins and forearms , I use forearm banging partner work as a power generation lesson and meeting force

Short strikes and short kicking is were it's at , forearms and shins fit this range , cover with them cut in with them, close and control

lots of good advice on conditioning here , and dont want to repeat , but as for shins I would say dont discount the heavy bag work, while more specific and harder conditoning is possible , the heavy bag is the best foundation IMHO and will build the base.

joints dont condition , Uechi saved my karate from tears of joint abuse fist on fist , broken thumbs. knuckles , and bad wrists

Mobility work strengthening and more appropriate weapons than the seiken , not only prevented but repaired the damage and took me miles beyond the ineffectual knuckle pushups and bag pounding.

In fact I beleive any real intense/duration fist work should involve wraps , mileage may vary but I think its pointless IMHO

Vans tips on the Bushiken and gradual conditioning repaired my disfunctional thumb which the socket was broken and was misdiagnosed as a sprain and healed incorrectly.

conditioning combined with products of scott sonnon , and more alternate methods of functional conditioning and traditional karate excercises (very similar IMHO) I think you build the necessary foundation to not only perform , but develop and heal where stress develops growth rather than tears down the body.

Nuitrition , rest , conditioning , Lairds got it in one .

and once you have a base some torture chamber sessions ( yeah Van stole that too :) ) sessions and really work this stuff safely and incrementally though .


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:16 am 
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Hey Laird , love the clubbell work , so need a set to go with the rest of the gear


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:20 am 
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We can share my set when you move to God's country mate. Club bells and bison meat. What's holding you back?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:25 am 
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Quote:
Your point on adrenaline is also well-taken. One of my KK instructors told me that we train our cardio intervals for 5 minute rounds (instead of the actual 3 minutes needed in KK tournaments) because the heightened anxiety of being in a live tournament bout will sap your energy so much that a person having trained for 5 minute rounds will only be effective for about 2-3 minutes.

Another real life example - one of my friends worked as a security guard in nightclubs for a few years and witnessed fights on a regular basis. He said that the general pattern was that people would through 4-5 punches each and then quickly run of gas, then wait to be separated by their friends so that they could catch their breath.



I recomend expirementing tabata intervals for athletes trying to condition for the adrenilan dump

twenty seconds bursts of as much effort as possible , then 10 seconds rest then repeat up to six sets , then a minutes rest , then repeat about six times is a good basic description.

The benifit of this apart form high heart rate and anabolic growth, is learning to control the heart rate recovery , you will also learn fitness does not apply to heart rate at maximum effort.... if you are fitter and stronger our expirements revealed you will arrive at the same heart rates as quickly as the less fit , you will simply have more capacity and expend more effort in said time .

However the real measure of fitness was how quickly you can recover/recompose maintain and function under the duress.

the only thing you can influence is your recovery and control of your heart rate through breathing.

while the trained and controlled techniques of a tournament can be conditioned paced and controlled , I personally dont think it reflects the chemical dump and furious all or nothing effort of a real confrontation.

burst recover is the best you can aim for IMHO

but always looking for other options/improvements

I think you need to target energy systems, and attributes , and not confuse your objectives , basically train like you want to perform.

all of course IMHO , not a sports scientist , or a professor of killoligy :roll: , just like putting stuff through its paces


Last edited by Stryke on Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:27 am 
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Feur wrote:
We can share my set when you move to God's country mate. Club bells and bison meat. What's holding you back?



the beuracracy mate , nothing else :evil: , will see you very soon , counting down 8)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:41 am 
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yeah can't wait!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:39 am 
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Feur wrote:
I don't believe you can condition a joint, but your can train it and feed it. Train it to move under resistance thru the full range of motion. This will make you stronger and harder to submit. Club bells kettle bells and yoga come to mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6cOUu8wBWo

One range on a long lever.

Keep the joints lubricated with fluid by feeding them thru diet and exercise.
Move it or lose it.


I agree with this. Conditioned forearms to me are my best weapon. I like to practice getting it on the neck, throat, nose etc. I keep a dowel in my car and give myself 20-30 taps daily on my way to work. Part of my AM ritual. My instructor, Joe Graziano, has us doing his routine at times which he call "The Fives" which includes 5 strikes for various weapons and takes 5 minutes tops.

And I agree with you Laird about being fit. Why tap and pound the weapons if the engine that drives those is fat and or out of shape? Daily conditioning of the whole body is a must, at least for me, to feel confident and prepared.

And I would guess I'm not the only 59 year old guy here who has arthritis and has had joint replacement. Definitely need to keep the conditioning in perspective as a means to an end, not an end in itself.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:22 pm 
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I do yoga and kettlebell exercises but never tried club bells. I know that they have been used in Persia/Iran for thousands of years. Do you think they're the functional equivalent of this Okinawan karate tool?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE6wdyzk ... be&t=1m35s

...and Stryke I see what you mean about quick recovery being the key in a real fight. Perhaps another way you can address the problem is to train the mind to remain calm in these situations so there isn't as much of an adrenaline dump?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:01 pm 
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Conditioning can be a long term disaster if overdone especially as one ages.

Some Okinawan masters don't use a makiwara because it can damage joints including shoulders and back. Tomoyose sensei's hands were free of callouses or bruises etc., yet he showed me once something i will never forget:

He took a large green apple in his hands, placed his two thumbs in the core and then snapped the apple in half.

Try that sometimes.

He then said that that type of hand strenght derives from sanchin and 'jar' training.

Careful not to bruise the bones as you condition...and do not overdo the roller pin over the shins in order to not destroy the capillaries. It would be nice if some doctor would comment on this thing we do.

All in moderation, especially when realizing that having well conditioned shins and forearms are only a part of defensive attributes.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:04 pm 
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And if you are going to do a cardio work that takes you out of the normal way you train...be sure you check with your doctor first.

Remember any of us may have unknown underlying genetic conditions that can be a killer if 'disturbed' ...

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:09 pm 
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Learn to breathe safely under stress
Quote:
Breathe in while storing energy, your outside is solid and inside soft; then breathe out when punching out with the outside soft (and elastic) and inside solid (Qi sinks to the Dan Tian). When breathing in Qi moves upwards and when breathing out Qi sinks downward.
________________________________________
__ Dr Paul Lam MD

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:32 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
It would be nice if some doctor would comment on this thing we do.


A while ago, I asked a friend who was finishing medical school about the dangers of conditioning the shins. He replied that there are not a lot of vital/sensitive structures there so if there is one part of your body that you can afford to abuse with minimal consequence, the shin is that area.

My question and his response were both limited to the shins though. I suspect that he may have had a different answer if questioned about conditioning the hands.


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